[DocHudson]

A lot of good points here and I agree with many. I'm on board with some government tax break incentives that help the free market realize profit in installing chargers, mostly in areas with a lot of traffic. That may provide some balance so that cooler heads are still in play to decide where profit is possible. If no profit is possible, I don't support direct government payments to subsidize or government ownership. When new tech matures itself and there is large market demand, there will be plenty of private money pouring into whatever infrastructure is required to provide service to the driving public. Letting this develop as naturally as possible will produce the most winners for suppliers and buyers.

 

[rcomeau]

A lot of good points here and I agree with many. I'm on board with some government tax break incentives that help the free market realize profit in installing chargers, mostly in areas with a lot of traffic. That may provide some balance so that cooler heads are still in play to decide where profit is possible. If no profit is possible, I don't support direct government payments to subsidize or government ownership. When new tech matures itself and there is large market demand, there will be plenty of private money pouring into whatever infrastructure is required to provide service to the driving public. Letting this develop as naturally as possible will produce the most winners for suppliers and buyers.

I see your point, but sometimes you get a chicken and the egg problem. If we had a lot of EVs, then there would be a simple business case for companies to install DC chargers to meet the demand. The problem is that the lack of available chargers slow the uptake of EVs which in turn make it harder to make a business case for the chargers. Since the true cost of gasoline burning is not charged to the consumer (you don't pay for the actual damage that burning gasoline costs all of us in health costs, climate change, wildfires and hurricanes and global instability), the system is perverted so natural market forces of cost for choice A or choice B are unfair. Unless we charge the true cost of burning gasoline (I know, carbon tax, sacrilege!), then the system is already unfairly balanced so we need an artificial input to re-balance the equation fairly and level the playing field (fair is fair, right?). Charging the gasoline consumer something more realistic that pays for the true cost of consumption can be used to fund the network fairly. Gasoline has gotten a free ride for 100+ years and those days have to end.

 

[dernotte]

I think destination chargers only make sense at L3. If I go to the mall for a couple hours and get 2 hours of L2, that doesn't solve any of my issues as a driver. Only if I work an 8 hour shift at the mall would it help. An L3 at the mall could work for an hour or 2 shopping trip.

The whole EV infrastructure thing just isn't thought out at all.

This is why we start to see 25KW DC charger to fill that gap. Faster than a 7.2 or 11kw L2, slower than an 50 or 100kw L3 charger.

 

[dernotte]

BTW: I have no complaint with what Quebec has in place, and would love to see that replicated across the US. I've been a frequent EV visitor to Quebec over the last 3yrs. But, that said, can you image Quebec with an L3 charging station every 50miles across the whole province N to S as well as E to W?

I recently changed job, and I am working now for the company who build 95% of the charging infrastructure in Quebec. According to studies, our products are the most reliable chargers in North America (our uptime is >99%). We have annouced last week that we will build a new facility in Michigan, near Detroit, to build charging equipment for the US market, so yes, I am expecting to see what we have here in Quebec replicated in the US...

 

[Slam08]

I recently changed job, and I am working now for the company who build 95% of the charging infrastructure in Quebec. According to studies, our products are the most reliable chargers in North America (our uptime is >99%). We have annouced last week that we will build a new facility in Illinois, near Detroit, to build charging equipment for the US market, so yes, I am expecting to see what we have here in Quebec replicated in the US...

I hope so! But I think you mean Michigan, near Detroit. Maybe auburn hills? 😉

 

[dernotte]

I hope so! But I think you mean Michigan, near Detroit. Maybe auburn hills? 😉

I can't say you're not right...

 

[kort6776]

Exactly.

L2 chargers in public locations are needed in cities, near locations where people live in apartment complexes that do not support sufficient density of charging units.
L2 chargers in private locations are desirable as destination chargers for people away from home,

why should the general public be paying to supply L2 chargers for apartment dwellers who cannot install their own chargers? nobody subsidized the costs of my L2 installations at my homes

 

[rcomeau]

why should the general public be paying to supply L2 chargers for apartment dwellers who cannot install their own chargers? nobody subsidized the costs of my L2 installations at my homes

1: L2 chargers are not expensive, so having a bunch of them in public parking and street parking can easily pay back the investment. The main obstacles are getting the power to the outlets, but in many cases, switching the streetlights to LEDs leaves leftover capacity that can be used for charging, so the owner of the lights are the best candidate to implement them. That is a more efficient solution than the patchwork of private companies putting L2 chargers where they can instead of where they are needed, on public land. Charge a fair price for the electricity and delivery and it does not cost you a dime.

2: You have the benefit of a private charger (and we have subsidies for that here as well, so I got some of my investment returned) so making it easier for people who don't have a parking space for themselves is good public policy. More EVs means less solution and less expensive EVs. Rising tides lift all ships.

 

[Burdito]

I don't have time to read through 80 pages so maybe this is covered in there but I think one of the biggest hurdles for mass adoption is ease of use for both the current network and future stations. Paying for a charge should be as simple as swiping a card like at a normal gas pump. Having to explain to people that there are several different networks that almost all have their own apps or cards you have to use to charge with is a huge turnoff and only adds confusion and frustration for new owners. A big factor in my decision to buy my ipace was the 2 level 2 chargers in my works parking lot. My wife and I spent over an hour trying to get the charger to activate using the app on hour phones. We finally got it to work but I have opted to get a physical card for their network in hopes of it being more reliable. Fortunately my wife's work has free level 2 chargers that don't have any associated apps so she can take it to charge during work if needed.

 

[dernotte]

I am fortunate to have an employer who believes in EV and EV charging infrastructure. We have over 30 L2 charging stations in the parking lot.

 

[dernotte]

Paying for a charge should be as simple as swiping a card like at a normal gas pump. Having to explain to people that there are several different networks that almost all have their own apps or cards you have to use to charge with is a huge turnoff and only adds confusion and frustration for new owners.

I can tell you that it is a big topic of the moment. Every CPO (Charge Point Operator like Electrify America, EVGO, Chargepoint, ...) ) is evaluating different options: signing peer-to-peer agreements between each other in order to provide roaming and interoperability to your customers and others, or signing with CPO aggregator (kind of hub of CPO) . Once you sign the agreement with the Hub owner, you have access to all CPO that have signed with the Hub owner. There is a standard protocol to communicate data between the charger and the CPO (server) : OCPP, for Open Charge Point Protocol (Home - Open Charge Alliance) , and OCPI for Open Charge Point Interface, is the standard to allow communication between CPO and between mobile App and CPO. Today, every manufacturer of charging equipment want to be OCPP and OCPI compliant otherwise you will be left alone in this game.

So keep faith, standardization is ease of use is coming....

 

[Qtown charger]

I recently changed job, and I am working now for the company who build 95% of the charging infrastructure in Quebec. According to studies, our products are the most reliable chargers in North America (our uptime is >99%). We have annouced last week that we will build a new facility in Michigan, near Detroit, to build charging equipment for the US market, so yes, I am expecting to see what we have here in Quebec replicated in the US...

Thank you in advance. Perhaps you can consider this a form of "missionary work" and convert a few of the natives to your cause.

 

[Qtown charger]

I don't have time to read through 80 pages so maybe this is covered in there but I think one of the biggest hurdles for mass adoption is ease of use for both the current network and future stations. Paying for a charge should be as simple as swiping a card like at a normal gas pump. Having to explain to people that there are several different networks that almost all have their own apps or cards you have to use to charge with is a huge turnoff and only adds confusion and frustration for new owners. A big factor in my decision to buy my ipace was the 2 level 2 chargers in my works parking lot. My wife and I spent over an hour trying to get the charger to activate using the app on hour phones. We finally got it to work but I have opted to get a physical card for their network in hopes of it being more reliable. Fortunately my wife's work has free level 2 chargers that don't have any associated apps so she can take it to charge during work if needed.

Yes, it is a big part of the 80 pages. Even extending to payment options for those in society that do not have access to credit cards. Prepaid debit cards are discussed, although sadly cash is not.

As an FYI I know of one L3 charging site in upstate NY that has a cash option via the convenience store associated with the adjacent gas station

 

[Slam08]

Yes, it is a big part of the 80 pages. Even extending to payment options for those in society that do not have access to credit cards. Prepaid debit cards are discussed, although sadly cash is not.

As an FYI I know of one L3 charging site in upstate NY that has a cash option via the convenience store associated with the adjacent gas station

Good point. Not having a cash option could be problematic. Doesn’t San Francisco require businesses to accept cash? How did EA and other get around that? Maybe it doesn’t apply?

 

[Qtown charger]

Good point. Not having a cash option could be problematic. Doesn’t San Francisco require businesses to accept cash? How did EA and other get around that? Maybe it doesn’t apply?

The problem with cash is having charging stations in unsupervised locations retaining cash in the equipment, making them targets for petty theft.
The problem with debit cards is the middleman that takes a cut and makes purchases more expensive for those least able to absorb the cost.

These are the real issues of universal accessibility that society needs to address.

 

[sciencegeek]

Cash is no longer advantageous for lower income folks because of its risks. Mobile payment is. These days, cash is for money laundering and avoiding taxes.

 

[kort6776]

Yes, it is a big part of the 80 pages. Even extending to payment options for those in society that do not have access to credit cards. Prepaid debit cards are discussed, although sadly cash is not.

As an FYI I know of one L3 charging site in upstate NY that has a cash option via the convenience store associated with the adjacent gas station

I think that most people buy their cars with some form of credit, if they can buy an EV on credit access to credit cards is not an issue.

 

[Ayepace]

The EU is proposing a 60km (37 miles) distance between EV charging stations.

E.U. Proposes 60-Kilometer Distance Between EV Charging Stations (rideapart.com)

 

[jsimon7777]

why should the general public be paying to supply L2 chargers for apartment dwellers who cannot install their own chargers? nobody subsidized the costs of my L2 installations at my homes

If we look at your tax breaks, we might find some "subsidies" you're getting that apartment dwellers are not. There's even the whole 7500 fed rebate you likely got. Maybe some state stuff too. To be fair...

 

[Trielectric]

why should the general public be paying to supply L2 chargers for apartment dwellers who cannot install their own chargers? nobody subsidized the costs of my L2 installations at my homes

Actually, the Government did give a tax credit for purchasing my Leviton EVSE in 2012.