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That's the point and there is already precedent. Cellular providers are obliged to cover less profitable areas if they want the right to the spectrum to make money selling cell service. This is because the common good for society is to have reliable cellular service for most citizens because this allows rural citizens to have a similar quality of life as urban dwellers and because it facilitates the adoption of cellular communications overall which benefits both consumer and supplier. Sometimes the government has to step in a level the playing field or fill a gap where there is one, usually by offering incentives of some sort for the providers. This is one way broadband internet has been deployed in rural areas. Either companies were incentivized to extend service, or non-profit companies were crated and government subsidized to do this.
You are correct, that is the point. Cell service or internet access is available in distant rural areas, but is not of the same quality as, say in Chicago or NY. In the same vein, EV charging should be available, but at a federally mandated minimal level, unless market forces say otherwise.
Bear in mind that L3 charging primarily benefits thru travellers, who overwhelmingly will be coming from urban areas.
The proposal suggested L3 charging stations every 50 miles "along designated alternative fuel corridors". This doesn't equate to every location in the US being within 50miles of a charging station. And even if it did, some would complain about having to deviate from a direct route to a location in order to charge.
 

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I believe the government has to create the basic infrastructure (like almost any major endeavor) before private industry takes over.
Agreed, it's a question of what level of infrastructure, and who does it benefit.

As for chargers every 50miles:

Who benefits from L3 chargers in remote locations? Those travelling from less remote locations i.e. the majority of us on this forum. Therefore, it's no surprise we want to be able to drive to our vacation homes, distant relatives, or favorite camp site and return. Residents of remote locations away from an urban center would haved the option of combining a trip to an urban location with a charging session, charge and drive back. Rural folks don't need L3 charging in their backyards, they need them en route to their destinations.
 

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Agreed, it's a question of what level of infrastructure, and who does it benefit.

As for chargers every 50miles:

Who benefits from L3 chargers in remote locations? Those travelling from less remote locations i.e. the majority of us on this forum. Therefore, it's no surprise we want to be able to drive to our vacation homes, distant relatives, or favorite camp site and return. Residents of remote locations away from an urban center would haved the option of combining a trip to an urban location with a charging session, charge and drive back. Rural folks don't need L3 charging in their backyards, they need them en route to their destinations.
I think you are being a bit too specific. The L3 charging infrastructure, is needed to establish a viable ecosystem for transition to EVs. Having a EV for 90% of your needs does not cut it. You need to be able to replace your gas car for 100% of the time and you need a good L3 charging network to achieve this (the chicken and the egg problem). It does not matter who will use it for what purpose. Without it, EVs will never replace ICE cars. The government needs to step in since the government's job is to implement the society we want, either by setting the rules of the game such that private industry needs to help with the infrastructure if they want a piece of the pie, or create a government organization to do it.

In Quebec, a gov supported company called Electric Circuit put in a network of L2 & L3 chargers all over. We have street-side L2 charging stations on our residential streets and L3 chargers at restaurants and other stops on the highway. This may not be profitable for a while (but likely will eventually and either return on the investment or we can sell it off and recoup the investment), but it is good for society just as schools, roads, broadband internet and hospitals are important. I know that sounds socialist, but I am a liberal voting Canadian after all ;).
 

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So are we being short sighted? I still believe having a charger every 50 miles will not convince many people to buy an EV. What will is faster "refueling" or much longer range. Most people are about convenience. What can I get RIGHT NOW, not in 30 or 45 minutes.

I'm also interested in hearing thoughts on installing infrastructure that I have little confidence will still be very viable 10 years from now when new tech, that actually gets most people to by a non-ICE vehicle, appears that doesn't need an L3 charger every 50 miles.
 

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Call me crazy. But I feel EV adoption should be slow. I’ve read that actually the greenest thing is to keep driving your old ICE car technically. A lot of waste goes into making a brand new vehicle.

It’s been about 10 years since the model S was released in 2012. And we just recently got some reasonable options under 50k (the average new car price is 47k). We need more affordable EVs as well.
 

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Call when when we get cars that can charge at an average of 1000kwh from 0 to 80%. Otherwise, screw L3 and just start putting lots of L2 on city streets.
 

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So are we being short sighted? I still believe having a charger every 50 miles will not convince many people to buy an EV. What will is faster "refueling" or much longer range. Most people are about convenience. What can I get RIGHT NOW, not in 30 or 45 minutes.

I'm also interested in hearing thoughts on installing infrastructure that I have little confidence will still be very viable 10 years from now when new tech, that actually gets most people to by a non-ICE vehicle, appears that doesn't need an L3 charger every 50 miles.
All these things being proposed here are not mutually exclusive. No matter wha thappens in battery tech, there will always be a segment of EVs with the 200-300 mile range. Better batteries? Sure. Instead of longer range, some will choose cheaper and current range. Also, cars today have ranges from 300-600 miles and yet we have gas stations all over the place.
I think in the shorter term, L3 chargers are more important because most EV drivers today likely own a home and can charge there and trips are what plays into range anxiety and hinder adoption.

Building out L2 chargers in neighborhoods are next. Having a L2 charger at a mall or restaurant will not help much. How important has it ever been for any of us to get %10 charge while eating out or shopping (that was hybrid thinking). That’s not where we do the bulk of our charging. We do the bulk of our charging while we sleep at L2 or on a highway stop (or mall near thre highway) at a L3.
 

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Yes, study says that 95% of the charge for an average EV driver at done at home on L2, but I live in a big city and not everybody can have a L2 charge at home. We need a charging solution for everyone especially who live in a condo, those who work on the road and visit a client for 2-3 hours, people traveling, visiting a park, going to the cinema, restaurant, etc...
The business of EV charger is not profitable. A L3 charger cost around 60-70.000$ (CAD), and a standard session cost around 10$ with about 5$ of electricity(here in Quebec). So you have to pay the equipment with 5$/session ( You need 70000/5 = 14000 sessions to pay the equipment). Let's say 1 session every hour (30-40 min of charge and 20 min idle), and the charger is in use 12h/day. It is more than 3 years, and I did not include the cost of the maintenance. Every time the cable is broken, or cut and stolen, it is about 1500$ to replace, etc....
 

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Call me crazy. But I feel EV adoption should be slow. I’ve read that actually the greenest thing is to keep driving your old ICE car technically. A lot of waste goes into making a brand new vehicle.

It’s been about 10 years since the model S was released in 2012. And we just recently got some reasonable options under 50k (the average new car price is 47k). We need more affordable EVs as well.
If your old car is a Prius and your new car is a Hummer EV, then possibly yes. My understanding from reading multiple studies is that, over the life of a car, the energy usage of ICE far exceeds the initial building energy outlay. Meanwhile, EVs have higher outlays for building, but they use far less energy to run and, in total, far less over their lifetimes. The smaller the EV battery, the less they take to build. Also EV production has gotten much more efficient over time.

But it's not like all our old ICE cars get demolished. Instead, they get sold on the used market. So if you have a 150k Prius that still has 50k of life left in it, and you're pondering an EV, sell the Prius to somebody who can't afford the more efficient EV, and get yourself an EV. Then when it reaches high enough miles, sell it on the used market and get another EV. The efficiency gains on the macro scale will still be there.

And eventually, while those entire ICE vehicles get demolished, the EVs will get turned into home battery systems or recycled, massively extending the payoff. An EV purchase, even of a Hummer EV, is an investment in the future of humanity.
 

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I think you are being a bit too specific. The L3 charging infrastructure, is needed to establish a viable ecosystem for transition to EVs. Having a EV for 90% of your needs does not cut it. You need to be able to replace your gas car for 100% of the time and you need a good L3 charging network to achieve this (the chicken and the egg problem). It does not matter who will use it for what purpose. Without it, EVs will never replace ICE cars. The government needs to step in since the government's job is to implement the society we want, either by setting the rules of the game such that private industry needs to help with the infrastructure if they want a piece of the pie, or create a government organization to do it.

In Quebec, a gov supported company called Electric Circuit put in a network of L2 & L3 chargers all over. We have street-side L2 charging stations on our residential streets and L3 chargers at restaurants and other stops on the highway. This may not be profitable for a while (but likely will eventually and either return on the investment or we can sell it off and recoup the investment), but it is good for society just as schools, roads, broadband internet and hospitals are important. I know that sounds socialist, but I am a liberal voting Canadian after all ;).
A little too specific, maybe, but just trying to establish a minimum level of infrastructure that is "cost effective", practical, and politically acceptable.

I agreed with everything you say and would echo your voting direction, but we have to make sure that what we propose actually helps those we claim to be helping, rather than the ourselves. Governments have a rich history of offering services to the disadvantaged minorities, that directly benefit the majority.

BTW: I have no complaint with what Quebec has in place, and would love to see that replicated across the US. I've been a frequent EV visitor to Quebec over the last 3yrs. But, that said, can you image Quebec with an L3 charging station every 50miles across the whole province N to S as well as E to W?
 

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Yes, study says that 95% of the charge for an average EV driver at done at home on L2, but I live in a big city and not everybody can have a L2 charge at home. We need a charging solution for everyone especially who live in a condo, those who work on the road and visit a client for 2-3 hours, people traveling, visiting a park, going to the cinema, restaurant, etc...
The business of EV charger is not profitable. A L3 charger cost around 60-70.000$ (CAD), and a standard session cost around 10$ with about 5$ of electricity(here in Quebec). So you have to pay the equipment with 5$/session ( You need 70000/5 = 14000 sessions to pay the equipment). Let's say 1 session every hour (30-40 min of charge and 20 min idle), and the charger is in use 12h/day. It is more than 3 years, and I did not include the cost of the maintenance. Every time the cable is broken, or cut and stolen, it is about 1500$ to replace, etc....
Let's remember that a good percentage of gas stations are barely profitable on gas sales only. It is incredibly niave from a government perspective to expect commercial viability, even if the equipment is installed for free under federal programs. Electric utilities, malls, travel destinations should be the target of these programs.
 

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All these things being proposed here are not mutually exclusive.
Exactly.

L2 chargers in public locations are needed in cities, near locations where people live in apartment complexes that do not support sufficient density of charging units.
L2 chargers in private locations are desirable as destination chargers for people away from home, mostly at hotels.
L3 chargers are needed along travel corridors and major roads connecting to them, and would ideally be paired with restaurants and convenience stores that cater to travelers.

Beyond that, the only type of location one would need to consider is rural out of the way places: travelers would need public chargers, but people who live there don't because they can charge at home.
 

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I think destination chargers only make sense at L3. If I go to the mall for a couple hours and get 2 hours of L2, that doesn't solve any of my issues as a driver. Only if I work an 8 hour shift at the mall would it help. An L3 at the mall could work for an hour or 2 shopping trip.

The whole EV infrastructure thing just isn't thought out at all.
 

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Joe Blow lives in an apartment in the city with only street parking or where he doesn't own the place. His local needs can be met with either curbside L2, L3 filling stations like a gas station or store, or an L2 where he works. His apartment complex, if it has parking, could install L2 on the street or in its own parking areas.

Jane Blew lives in a suburban home or city condo with its own assigned parking. She can pay for her own L2 charger for normal driving, or use an L2 charger at work.

Tom Blaw likes to travel long distances on a regular basis. He's the one who thinks L3 every 50 miles is important.

There's probably 3 Joes for every Jane, but there's probably 3 Janes for every Tom.
 

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Joe Blow lives in an apartment in the city with only street parking or where he doesn't own the place. His local needs can be met with either curbside L2, L3 filling stations like a gas station or store, or an L2 where he works. His apartment complex, if it has parking, could install L2 on the street or in its own parking areas.

Jane Blew lives in a suburban home or city condo with its own assigned parking. She can pay for her own L2 charger for normal driving, or use an L2 charger at work.

Tom Blaw likes to travel long distances on a regular basis. He's the one who thinks L3 every 50 miles is important.

There's probably 3 Joes for every Jane, but there's probably 3 Janes for every Tom.
According to pew research data. 55 percent of people live in the suburbs, 31% Urban and 15% rural.
So there are 2 Janes for every 1 Joe
And 3-4 Janes for every 1 Tom


this was from 2018. We know there were changes with the pandemic. But I would think that the suburbs and rural gained population at the expense of the urban people.
 

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I think destination chargers only make sense at L3. If I go to the mall for a couple hours and get 2 hours of L2, that doesn't solve any of my issues as a driver. Only if I work an 8 hour shift at the mall would it help. An L3 at the mall could work for an hour or 2 shopping trip.

The whole EV infrastructure thing just isn't thought out at all.
I disagree with both of these points.

If the city dweller who lives in an apartment has L2 everywhere they shop or work they will never need L3 in town.
Threading the needle between public funding "jump starting" EV infrastructure and letting the private sector figure things out by trial, error, and darwinian selection is not straight-forward. Public funds are always "wasted" to some extent because you can't possibly have the optimal solution figured out at the start of a technological transition.
 

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According to pew research data. 55 percent of people live in the suburbs, 31% Urban and 15% rural.
So there are 2 Janes for every 1 Joe
And 3-4 Janes for every 1 Tom


this was from 2018. We know there were changes with the pandemic. But I would think that the suburbs and rural gained population at the expense of the urban people.
A lot of suburbs are apartment dwellers, though, so facing the same situation of not being able to charge at home.

This is not being solved with private funding and the public funding is inadequate. Failure of the market and governance.
 

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This is not being solved with private funding and the public funding is inadequate. Failure of the market and governance.
so if the goal is EV adoptions 80% of EV charging issues are solved with abundant urban level 2 and 3 chargers. The remaining 20% can be solved with highway chargers.

makes sense that private could work on the 80% and the government finish the last 20% or so.

I disagree with when and how it is being done. But they are people much more influential and wealthier than I making those decisions (politicians and lobbyists for business/industry)
 

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so if the goal is EV adoptions 80% of EV charging issues are solved with abundant urban level 2 and 3 chargers. The remaining 20% can be solved with highway chargers.

makes sense that private could work on the 80% and the government finish the last 20% or so.

I disagree with when and how it is being done. But they are people much more influential and wealthier than I making those decisions (politicians and lobbyists for business/industry)
I agree that 80%+ of the issue can be solved in urban and suburban areas. Probably more like 95%+ because a lot of rural people can add L2. ****, they can add solar too. Also, a lot of rural is right up against suburban. Our house is rural but sandwiched between suburban areas. Also, the definition of urban and suburban is vague. I'd consider 90% of Boise to be suburban, even though it's likely classified as urban. It's as urban as most of the surrounding areas that are definitely classified as suburban.

Charging infrastructure needs to serve the urban and suburban apartment dweller who doesn't have a charger at home. Get them street charging. Get them work charging.
 
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I agree that 80%+ of the issue can be solved in urban and suburban areas. Probably more like 95%+ because a lot of rural people can add L2. ****, they can add solar too. Also, a lot of rural is right up against suburban. Our house is rural but sandwiched between suburban areas. Also, the definition of urban and suburban is vague. I'd consider 90% of Boise to be suburban, even though it's likely classified as urban. It's as urban as most of the surrounding areas that are definitely classified as suburban.

Charging infrastructure needs to serve the urban and suburban apartment dweller who doesn't have a charger at home. Get them street charging. Get them work charging.
It's probably better than 95%, more like 99%, since I doubt much more than 1% would start a journey at a rural location, drive more than 100miles w/o passing thru one of the travel corridors, do their business and then return home that same day. Even then, 2-3hrs on an L2 would give them another 60miles and ease the concerns of getting home.
 
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