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Very cool. Interesting that the states have to submit their plans by August this year. Yeah in 2030 things will look much better in terms of infrastructure, but there will also be many more EVs on the road competing for chargers.
 

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It's about time and many years too late.

Here's a draft of the proposed standards. It's 82 pages long.
nprm_evcharging_unofficial.pdf (dot.gov)

A related memorandum (only 31 pages) cited in the above document is The National Electric Vehicle Infrastructure (NEVI) Formula Program Guidance (dot.gov)

I hope you enjoy reading these while you wait for your car to charge at a public charger. :)
Are there similar standards for gas stations? If so, why not copy and paste.
Market forces tend to dominate where gas stations get placed. The same will happen with L3 charging sites.

From briefly scanning this the only meaningful regulations are stations of at least 4 chargers with <3% down time, every 50miles on specific corridors. Everything else is fluff.
 

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Are there similar standards for gas stations? If so, why not copy and paste.
Market forces tend to dominate where gas stations get placed. The same will happen with L3 charging sites.

From briefly scanning this the only meaningful regulations are stations of at least 4 chargers with <3% down time, every 50miles on specific corridors. Everything else is fluff.
I think market focus have to be properly aligned for this to work. The incentives are all wrong for natural market forces to work here. The optimal result for a DC charger provider is not to ease adoption of EVs in the long term, their incentives are to have the DC busy 100% of the time for as much money as they can get. There is no natural incentive to put a DC charger in an obscure place that might not be busy, but the lack of chargers in obscure places hinders adoption of EVs. Every DC charge supplier will wait for another one to go out o on a limb or gouge the customer when they are the only game in town.The results is, as we see, a patchwork of dozen of networks, all needing their own accounts and apps, big gaps in areas and lots of frustration for EV drivers. For market forces to work, the reward/incentive structure has to have the same parameters.
 

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Are there similar standards for gas stations? If so, why not copy and paste.
They are not relevant to an I-PACE.

Every place I've lived have had a government agency responsible for testing liquid fuel pumps and certifying them for dispensing the amount of fuel that they claim on their displays. This certification happens on a regular basis for each and every pump. A pump must be recertified after any repairs are made to it, too. At present, I haven't seen any similar certification that a public EVSE is actually dispensing the kWh of energy claimed. If brand E charger claims it dispensed 50 kWh of energy into my cat, how am I to know that actually did? There is no certification sticker on the EVSE like one sees on liquid fuel pumps. This certification is a part of the proposed standards.

As for placement of EVSEs, the market will drive that. Liquid fuel pump installations do get examined for location relative to other pumps to ensure that there is adequate competition and not a saturation of one brand in a location. Obviously, a remote location that only has enough market for a single station would be an exception case. Example: when Flying J declared bankruptcy several years ago and Pilot bought them, the merger was examined and resulted in several locations being sold to Love's since Pilot already had an established location nearby. The same competitive market has to be ensured for EVSEs too so that people have a choice and are not locked in to being dependent on one provider. Yes, I realize the electricity will probably come from the same utility regardless of supplier, just like liquid fuels come from the same pipelines for all brands in the same area. The brands still add their own blend of additives, and other incentives (eg. loyalty programs) for the consumers to have a differentiation and choice.

Feel free to search for the liquid fuel standards covering your area. You will probably find them at a state government web site.
 

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Feel free to search for the liquid fuel standards covering your area. You will probably find them at a state government web site.
The question was tongue in cheek. I appreciate the selling of gasoline is regulated, just as any other product, but we don't have federal/state regulations mandating a grocery store or even a gas station (let alone competing entities) in every community.

The idea of an L3 charging station every 50miles along the interstate highway network seems reasonable, but out of the way locations with few thru travellers makes no economic sense. These locations should be encouraged to install banks of L2 chargers.
While this may sound tough on anyone wanting to visit granny in far distant wherever, but commercial operations shouldn't have to pay for folks living in these parts. Perhaps federal/state grants to install L2 chargers in residential locations would be a better use of funds.
 

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The idea of an L3 charging station every 50miles along the interstate highway network seems reasonable, but out of the way locations with few thru travellers makes no economic sense. These locations should be encouraged to install banks of L2 chargers.
While this may sound tough on anyone wanting to visit granny in far distant wherever, but commercial operations shouldn't have to pay for folks living in these parts. Perhaps federal/state grants to install L2 chargers in residential locations would be a better use of funds.
I agree 100%

level 3 chargers every 50 miles is nice. But come on. How often would we use these? It’s much more effective to set up level 2 chargers everywhere. They are cheaper. It’s like the government thinks like the EV reviewers. They act like people take 150 mile road trips every freaking day.
 

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I agree 100%

level 3 chargers every 50 miles is nice. But come on. How often would we use these? It’s much more effective to set up level 2 chargers everywhere. They are cheaper. It’s like the government thinks like the EV reviewers. They act like people take 150 mile road trips every freaking day.
L2 chargers are great for overnight stays, but close to useless for road tripping
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I agree 100%

level 3 chargers every 50 miles is nice. But come on. How often would we use these? It’s much more effective to set up level 2 chargers everywhere. They are cheaper. It’s like the government thinks like the EV reviewers. They act like people take 150 mile road trips every freaking day.
Your perception is clearly one of a person who lives in a big city and stays there most of the time. There really are a lot of people who driver more than 150 miles per day. I have a few vehicles that can go 600+ miles on a tank of liquid fuel and there have been many times when I've used every bit of it and more in less than a day.

Given the reduced mileage during winter months, 50 miles apart would be a blessing. No, I wouldn't stop every 50 miles. The 50 miles apart would help to spread the load and reduce the probability of a crowd of cars queued up to use the same chargers.

EA touted that they completed a coast-to-coast string of chargers with an average of 70 miles apart. Unfortunately, that average is skewed by several close together (eg. Maryland) leaving much farther gaps elsewhere (eg. across Ohio and Kansas). Fortunately, some of the stretches have alternatives. And then you get sudden events like landslides that block portions of I-70 in Colorado from time-to-time and require lengthy detours.

One would think a major college town like Champaign-Urbana, IL, would have a DCFC. But no, the closest ones along I-74 are Bloomington, IL, (about 50 miles west) and Indianapolis, IN (120 miles east). That's a stretch of 170 miles without a DCFC. Would you feel comfortable doing that drive in winter? Not likely. You'd have to stop for the night somewhere along the way instead of making it in about 3-4 hours in an ICE vehicle.

There's already a plethora of L2 charges across many areas (mostly vehicle dealerships and hotels/motels) but they don't help everyone. The last leg of my 800 mile roundtrips have to be planned since it is 60 miles from a L3 charger and that means it is a 120 mile roundtrip. This leaves little range for other driving, especially in cold or bad weather as I have no charging capability at my destination (not even allowed to use the granny charger).
 

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I agree 100%

level 3 chargers every 50 miles is nice. But come on. How often would we use these? It’s much more effective to set up level 2 chargers everywhere. They are cheaper. It’s like the government thinks like the EV reviewers. They act like people take 150 mile road trips every freaking day.
I think uncle Sam will mainly focus on interstate travel and government land like state parks while leaving city charging up to their local governments/businesses. I think we'll see businesses choosing to install level 2 chargers for their customers in the same way we saw them all start offering free wifi back in the early 2000's to entice customers.
 

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Your perception is clearly one of a person who lives in a big city and stays there most of the time. There really are a lot of people who driver more than 150 miles per day. I have a few vehicles that can go 600+ miles on a tank of liquid fuel and there have been many times when I've used every bit of it and more in less than a day.
I’m talking from the aspect of an average person. You are talking from the perspective of someone who travels more than the typical American.


“The United States Department of Transportation Federal Highway Administration said that the average person drove 14,263 miles per year in 2019. That’s roughly 1,200 miles per month per driver or about 39 miles per day. By comparison, the DOT said the average annual miles was 13,476 in 2018.”


I’m not sure how these numbers were affected by the pandemic. I imagine most people started driving less but some people started driving more.
 

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I’m talking from the aspect of an average person. You are talking from the perspective of someone who travels more than the typical American.
Charging availability needs to accomodate more than the average driver, the question is how far do we go to accomodate the "extreme" driver.
I used to do an 85mile oneway commute (90% interstate) 3 days a week. L3 chargers every 50 miles of interstate would allow me to do this even in the peak of winter.
Federal regulations tied to interstate construction and maintenance would enable this. States and local communities would then be on the hook for travel to destinations such as parks, beaches, resorts etc. If locals aren't prepared to foot the bill to encourage EV owners to visit destinations, then they will lose out on revenue. And equally, visiting granny in some far away remote locale should on your $$, not mine.
 

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You are talking from the perspective of someone who travels more than the typical American.
Well, no, I'm trying to consider all people using the roads. The roads themselves are not built for the typical (average) vehicle/load. They'd be destroyed quickly if they were. They are built for maximum loads.

The EVSE infrastructure has to support the extreme cases (people with EVs that even on the best of days can't go 200 miles on a charge taking long trips). People towing campers and boats (something the US I-PACE isn't built to do) will need more frequent charging locations. Electric RVs of the future will need big batteries or decently spaced fast chargers. Without consideration of cases like these and more, the tourism industry will collapse.

You've got to think beyond a person's daily commute to a work location or the trip to the grocery store or other local destinations. Most people didn't go far from home when they could only travel as far as a horse could do in a day. It was the spread out of liquid fuel stations, and spacing them for filling up the early small fuel tanks, that got people the ability to go farther.

A mindset of needed EVSEs to supply people an average of 39 miles of charge/day is a mindset equivalent of horse and buggy days.
 

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The question was tongue in cheek. I appreciate the selling of gasoline is regulated, just as any other product, but we don't have federal/state regulations mandating a grocery store or even a gas station (let alone competing entities) in every community.

The idea of an L3 charging station every 50miles along the interstate highway network seems reasonable, but out of the way locations with few thru travellers makes no economic sense. These locations should be encouraged to install banks of L2 chargers.
While this may sound tough on anyone wanting to visit granny in far distant wherever, but commercial operations shouldn't have to pay for folks living in these parts. Perhaps federal/state grants to install L2 chargers in residential locations would be a better use of funds.
That's the point and there is already precedent. Cellular providers are obliged to cover less profitable areas if they want the right to the spectrum to make money selling cell service. This is because the common good for society is to have reliable cellular service for most citizens because this allows rural citizens to have a similar quality of life as urban dwellers and because it facilitates the adoption of cellular communications overall which benefits both consumer and supplier. Sometimes the government has to step in a level the playing field or fill a gap where there is one, usually by offering incentives of some sort for the providers. This is one way broadband internet has been deployed in rural areas. Either companies were incentivized to extend service, or non-profit companies were crated and government subsidized to do this.
 

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Well, no, I'm trying to consider all people using the roads. The roads themselves are not built for the typical (average) vehicle/load. They'd be destroyed quickly if they were. They are built for maximum loads.

The EVSE infrastructure has to support the extreme cases (people with EVs that even on the best of days can't go 200 miles on a charge taking long trips). People towing campers and boats (something the US I-PACE isn't built to do) will need more frequent charging locations. Electric RVs of the future will need big batteries or decently spaced fast chargers. Without consideration of cases like these and more, the tourism industry will collapse.

You've got to think beyond a person's daily commute to a work location or the trip to the grocery store or other local destinations. Most people didn't go far from home when they could only travel as far as a horse could do in a day. It was the spread out of liquid fuel stations, and spacing them for filling up the early small fuel tanks, that got people the ability to go farther.

A mindset of needed EVSEs to supply people an average of 39 miles of charge/day is a mindset equivalent of horse and buggy days.
I agree that road needs to handle extreme cases as well.
I agree that we need more level3 fast charging options

what I don’t agree with is that we START there. I would START with abundant level 2 chargers since they are cheaper and easier to install. This would benefit the average driver more than extra level 3 chargers.
 

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I think I'm fine with allowing market forces to fill the L2 and L3 requirements. This will be more efficient and practical and ultimately save everyone money. L2 and L3 charging are still not fast enough for most people to use exclusively. Having the government force the spending of money on this tech is a waste of resources. Widespread EV adoption will come when there is tech available to make batteries that can provide 500 to 1000 miles of range and/or can recharge in a similar amount of time as fueling an ICE car. When new tech is available, there is a good chance the current L2 and L3 tech won't be good enough and now you have a lot of legacy equipment installed that people don't need.

In the meantime, expecting people to stop for 30 minutes to an hour every 2 hours of driving is not going to happen for a large percentage of the population. Commuting is fine for EV's. Otherwise, most will use a second ICE car or a rental to take a road trip. That's what I do.

I just don't see us all driving around in 250 mile range EV's in 5 or 10 years. Why would I want to force the build out of expensive infrastructure to satisfy the current need when that could very well be gone in short order?
 

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I believe the government has to create the basic infrastructure (like almost any major endeavor) before private industry takes over. Simply because this is a problem that is circular, you have to unknot the tie before private industry takes over. This is the definition of government in capitalistic western countries: infrastructure and to enable citizens and private industry. Market forces can absolutely be part of this consideration, the two are not mutually exclusive (which is a common misconception).

As for chargers every 50 miles: in my opinion not only are they needed for use case, they are also needed to allow people the comfort of switching to an EV. I am very well aware most people I know really almost never travel outside of the range of an EV even in winter (and have garage's for home charging). But psychologically they are afraid to commit to an EV "just in case." Its kind of funny because when I point out they can always rent a car for the once a year event they always go "oh yeah!"

Being able to show that the EV infrastructure is not a fad, not a luxury, and not just for people who are so committed they are willing to suffer pain (yes I have been one of those in the past) is crucial for widespread adoption.
 

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I feel like this thinking of driving to empty and then filling up is “gas thinking”. I don’t think about filling up anymore. I plug it when I come home and unplug it when I leave. I don’t really spend time charging anymore. Other than the time I spend plugging and unplugging and storing the cord everyday. The only time I think about fast charging is a trip. And that happens every couple of months.

how you you guys charge your I pace or other EV? Does anyone primarily use level 3 chargers? I rarely use fast chargers. If I had a Lucid or Polestar with free EA charging then things might be different. Then I would prolly take a weekly Walmart or target run and charge then.
 
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