[LOLTSLA]

When you say that a car "charges at 150kW" or 270kW or whatever, I expect that means that will make a difference in how long you have to wait to charge when you're on a road trip. This actually is the case for the e-tron and the Taycan. They advertise 150kW and 270kW respectively, and they actually hit numbers in that ballpark for enough time for it to make a real difference in total wait time at the rapid charger.

This simply isn't the case for the I-PACE. For the state of charge range and the amount of time that it can stay at 100kW, it may as well just max out at 80kW.

I just got done watching Bjørn Nyland's video he posted today on the H280 update. At 9:36 you can see that he started charging at 2% SoC. The charge rate started at 97kW and crept up to 100kW very briefly until slamming down to 79kW when the car hit about 8% SoC. It stayed around 80kW until the video cut away. From other videos and charts, we know that the I-PACE drops to about 50kW by the time it hits 80% SoC. So the charge rate is only 100kW for the first few minutes, and for the remainder of the time -- about 48 minutes from 10% to 80% -- it's at 80kW or lower.

The only plausible reason the charge rate would instantaneously jump down 21kW is if there is something in the I-PACE software that did that, like a switch. In pseudo-code, "if(soc > 7kWh) max_rate = 80kW". It's almost as if Jaguar engineers are actually not happy with pumping 100kW into the battery pack for more than about 4 or 5 minutes, and even then they'll only allow it at under something like 8% SoC. Were the engineers told by marketing or management to get the car to accept 100kW somehow?

Why bother doing it at all?

It seems to me that the answer is, to claim a marketing advantage. By accepting 100kW at all, no matter how constrained and useless it is in practice, I-PACE Wikipedia page sports 100kW DC charging as a feature. But it only charges at those extra 20kW for a few minutes, and only if you drive your SoC very low and risk getting stranded from something like rain or a headwind! If you prefer to not get stranded from unexpected weather impacting your efficiency, then you'll almost always arrive at the rapid charger with more than 10% SoC. Which means on an actual real-world road trip, you will only ever charge at a maximum of 80kW.

In practice, your I-PACE maxes out at 80kW! The 100kW number is deceptive.

Fastned published some mystery chart with 100kW at up to 40% SoC (right above text explaining how to access the emergency release cable to actually disconnect an I-PACE from their charger -- nice). But we have at least 3 separate videos (linked above) from Bjørn that contradict that chart. I have no idea where Fastned got their numbers, but has anyone here with the H280 update gotten more then around 80kW when your SoC is higher than 10%? I'm sure we'd all love to see your video of it.

Note that Jaguar never actually claimed 100kW charging in their initial press release. What Jaguar said is that the I-PACE can charge from 0% to 80% in "around 40 minutes" on a 100kW charger. The Wikipedia page claims that the 0-80% time is "45 minutes using a 100 kW charger." From the 3 Bjørn videos I linked in this post, it looks like you can expect a 0% to 80% charge in more like 50 minutes.

Personally I'm fine with 80kW. I'm not running out and trading it for an e-tron anytime soon. What bothers me is when people get something less than what they're led to believe they'll be getting when they buy.

 

[sciencegeek]

That's a good rant and I couldn't agree more! 🆒

 

[gtquan]

Yeah - not sure what the deal is here. Protecting the battery? I've only used DC rapid charging once given my use if the car. I wouldn't be happy if I had to use fast charging regularly.

 

[Qtown charger]

That's a good rant and I couldn't agree more! 🆒

One word response - marketing. The scourge of modern life.
That said, not sure any of us said "Gee, I must have an I-Pace because it can charge at 100kW".

Perhaps if manufacturers came up with a standard battery size and shape, we could treat batteries like propane tanks and exchange for an instant fill up.

 

[Ken]

Wow, I sure can tell nobody here has owned a Tesla. If you did, you'd be yawning about now. After almost 3 years of owning an MS, this is nothing new. I'd be lucky to get peak charging rates for more than 5 minutes. And if you have an 'older' Tesla (defined as over 3 years old), you'll sit at a SC for 2X as long as your display says you will. Deceptive? You betcha!

So this is very familiar territory for me. No surprises and I was expecting nothing less (or should I say more). Fortunately I expect to be doing at least 95% of my charging at home.

If you want to hold out some hope, there's always the chance that as Jaguar gets more on-the-road info from our cars, they might offer an update to prolong peak charging. BEV manufacturers are almost always conservative with things like this to protect the battery...err, their warranty.

 

[LOLTSLA]

Wow, I sure can tell nobody here has owned a Tesla.

Actually I owned a 2016 Model X for 3 years. You don't have to remind me of my Seattle-SLC-Seattle road trip in the summer of 2017 when I was sitting at a sweltering parking lot in Kennewick while maxing out at 42kW. At 10% SoC, and being the only car at the superchargers. Granted I was driving during a heat wave, but I don't think I broke 60kW at any of the dozen or so supercharger stops. It was excruciating, and it led to me replacing my Model X with a Volvo XC90 T8 PHEV, so I could use gasoline on road trips while still using electricity around town.

These days I have exactly one "road trip" I do via EV, which is to visit family in Yakima, 150 miles away. My fully-charged I-PACE can easily make it over the Cascade mountain range, even in snow. The day I find myself doing actual road trips with multiple rapid charging stops, I'm trading in my I-PACE for a Taycan. (Hmmm, given my I-PACE's depreciation and the price of the Porsche, I guess I'll have to fork over a bit more cash too. YOLO.)

 

[usarcher]

In 25k miles I’ve used a 50kW charger twice and a 25kW charger maybe half a dozen times. For the health of the battery I’m ok with not having sustained 100kW rates and on a long trip with kids after 200+ miles we need to stop anyway and not just for 5min.

The kicker with this issue is with Electrify America and their tiered rates for charging. If you aren’t on their subscription the price here is 25¢ for up to 75kW but jumps to 69¢ for up to 125kW, 18¢ and 50¢ respectively on their monthly plan. Since the I Pace communicates to the charger that it can take 100kW your entire session is billed at the higher rate. This almost triples the price when most of the session you would probably be pulling under 75kW.

 

[Ken]

In 25k miles I’ve used a 50kW charger twice and a 25kW charger maybe half a dozen times. For the health of the battery I’m ok with not having sustained 100kW rates and on a long trip with kids after 200+ miles we need to stop anyway and not just for 5min.

The kicker with this issue is with Electrify America and their tiered rates for charging. If you aren’t on their subscription the price here is 25¢ for up to 75kW but jumps to 69¢ for up to 125kW, 18¢ and 50¢ respectively on their monthly plan. Since the I Pace communicates to the charger that it can take 100kW your entire session is billed at the higher rate. This almost triples the price when most of the session you would probably be pulling under 75kW.

I’ve read about their obnoxious pricing structure. You should be allowed to preselect your charging rate at these EA stations. But as bad as they are, it’s not just EA, it’s all these guys with their ‘billing by the minute’. They should be pricing by the amount of electricity actually dispersed. Hopefully there will be enough pressure, regulatory or marketplace, that they’ll be forced to change. But for those that do a lot of long distance traveling, I’m sure there are times you have no choice and are just happy to find a charger.

It‘s too bad you can’t tell the car how to communicate with the charger, telling the charger the car can only accept 75kW max. You’d think that would be an easy software upgrade, but I’m not aware of any BEV that can do that.

 

[dernotte]

We don't necessary have the fully picture on the complex negociation JLR has with LG. We can't not offer a bette guarantee of a product that the manufactuer provide. In the case, the battery is not manufactured by JLR, but JLR guarantee it, so it is over protecting himself just to not fall into a massing recall on a battery problem not covered by LG. I don't know where I picked this quote, but somewhere on internet, some time ago

Quote: "
I can share the following with everyone about this:
· The contract with LG is the largest contract we have ever signed (equal to the investment in our last factory);
· To be able to start 100 kW charging, the battery must be 25 degrees Celsius (which is impossible without pre-heating with an AC charger);
· The driving and also the charging is tested at 25 degrees (because the WLTP is also done at 25 degrees);
· Charging makes the battery warmer, but the software has not yet been adapted to increase the charging capacity. If charging starts at 100 kW, the car can continue to charge 100 kW.
· Our battery guarantee that has been agreed with LG has to do with relegation and is based on State Of Health (SOH). Not all brands have this.
· A number of other brands have maximized the number of charging sessions of> 100 kW. After that the power will go down. That is not the case with Jaguar.
· There are also brands that view all data of the car and remotely adjust the load capacity to the car, for example from 120 kW to 60 kW if this is necessary to protect the battery. This is not the case with Jaguar either.

· People at JLR are now talking to LG to negotiate and adjust the warranty conditions. A consequence could be to adapt the software to achieve higher loading speeds by:
o Load 100 kW at a lower temperature, for example at 20 and / or 15 degrees Celsius
o While driving, stop heating the interior and still heat the battery; a button to do this is unfortunately not possible.

" End of quote.

 

[usarcher]

I’ve read about their obnoxious pricing structure. You should be allowed to preselect your charging rate at these EA stations. But as bad as they are, it’s not just EA, it’s all these guys with their ‘billing by the minute’. They should be pricing by the amount of electricity actually dispersed. Hopefully there will be enough pressure, regulatory or marketplace, that they’ll be forced to change. But for those that do a lot of long distance traveling, I’m sure there are times you have no choice and are just happy to find a charger.

It‘s too bad you can’t tell the car how to communicate with the charger, telling the charger the car can only accept 75kW max. You’d think that would be an easy software upgrade, but I’m not aware of any BEV that can do that.

To be fair with the per minute vs per kWh, a lot of states have rules that only allow power companies to charge for electricity. This forces the EV charging companies to bill people by the minute.

As far as I know state side EA is the only company that has tiered pricing for their stations. I can understand charging more for a vehicle that pulls electricity at a higher rate because the station would be billed a higher rate from the electric company with high demand over charges. What I think EA should do is follow the old gas station method and offer regular, mid, and high options. If you're not in a rush you can select the 75kW tier, want to be out a little faster choose the 125kW, if you have a car that can take 350kW and you want to be out in 5min choose the top tier.

 

[Ken]

That's what I was saying, allow the user to select the level of charge that works best and is the most cost effective. Unfortunately that's not what they're doing.

BTW, I thought that EVGO also does tiered pricing.

 

[sciencegeek]

Some states don't allow electricity resale so the station operators aren't allowed to charge by kWh in those states ...

 

[Ayepace]

(reduced for the parts related to my response)

...
This simply isn't the case for the I-PACE. For the state of charge range and the amount of time that it can stay at 100kW, it may as well just max out at 80kW.

I just got done watching Bjørn Nyland's video he posted today on the H280 update. At 9:36 you can see that he started charging at 2% SoC. The charge rate started at 97kW and crept up to 100kW very briefly until slamming down to 79kW when the car hit about 8% SoC. It stayed around 80kW until the video cut away. From other videos and charts, we know that the I-PACE drops to about 50kW by the time it hits 80% SoC. So the charge rate is only 100kW for the first few minutes, and for the remainder of the time -- about 48 minutes from 10% to 80% -- it's at 80kW or lower.
...

In practice, your I-PACE maxes out at 80kW! The 100kW number is deceptive.

Fastned published some mystery chart with 100kW at up to 40% SoC (right above text explaining how to access the emergency release cable to actually disconnect an I-PACE from their charger -- nice). But we have at least 3 separate videos (linked above) from Bjørn that contradict that chart. I have no idea where Fastned got their numbers, but has anyone here with the H280 update gotten more then around 80kW when your SoC is higher than 10%? I'm sure we'd all love to see your video of it.
...

My cat has H280 update level of software.

Yes it can charge > 80kW at > 10% SOC. This is from a still picture taken of an EA charger. It dropped off after 38%. The charging session had started after a long drive in 90F+ ambient temps and interstate highway speeds. Also, this was after moving from another charger where I had spent 15 minutes with the charge rate not > 28kW. The battery had gone up to 30% before starting this charging session and was at the indicated 35% by the time I got the picture. At 102kW, the %SOC goes up quickly. It did charge at less than 80kW for most of the charging session, though.

 

[SeanM1]

When you say that a car "charges at 150kW" or 270kW or whatever, I expect that means that will make a difference in how long you have to wait to charge when you're on a road trip. This actually is the case for the e-tron and the Taycan. They advertise 150kW and 270kW respectively, and they actually hit numbers in that ballpark for enough time for it to make a real difference in total wait time at the rapid charger.

This simply isn't the case for the I-PACE. For the state of charge range and the amount of time that it can stay at 100kW, it may as well just max out at 80kW.

I just got done watching Bjørn Nyland's video he posted today on the H280 update. At 9:36 you can see that he started charging at 2% SoC. The charge rate started at 97kW and crept up to 100kW very briefly until slamming down to 79kW when the car hit about 8% SoC. It stayed around 80kW until the video cut away. From other videos and charts, we know that the I-PACE drops to about 50kW by the time it hits 80% SoC. So the charge rate is only 100kW for the first few minutes, and for the remainder of the time -- about 48 minutes from 10% to 80% -- it's at 80kW or lower.

The only plausible reason the charge rate would instantaneously jump down 21kW is if there is something in the I-PACE software that did that, like a switch. In pseudo-code, "if(soc > 7kWh) max_rate = 80kW". It's almost as if Jaguar engineers are actually not happy with pumping 100kW into the battery pack for more than about 4 or 5 minutes, and even then they'll only allow it at under something like 8% SoC. Were the engineers told by marketing or management to get the car to accept 100kW somehow?

Why bother doing it at all?

It seems to me that the answer is, to claim a marketing advantage. By accepting 100kW at all, no matter how constrained and useless it is in practice, I-PACE Wikipedia page sports 100kW DC charging as a feature. But it only charges at those extra 20kW for a few minutes, and only if you drive your SoC very low and risk getting stranded from something like rain or a headwind! If you prefer to not get stranded from unexpected weather impacting your efficiency, then you'll almost always arrive at the rapid charger with more than 10% SoC. Which means on an actual real-world road trip, you will only ever charge at a maximum of 80kW.

In practice, your I-PACE maxes out at 80kW! The 100kW number is deceptive.

Fastned published some mystery chart with 100kW at up to 40% SoC (right above text explaining how to access the emergency release cable to actually disconnect an I-PACE from their charger -- nice). But we have at least 3 separate videos (linked above) from Bjørn that contradict that chart. I have no idea where Fastned got their numbers, but has anyone here with the H280 update gotten more then around 80kW when your SoC is higher than 10%? I'm sure we'd all love to see your video of it.

Note that Jaguar never actually claimed 100kW charging in their initial press release. What Jaguar said is that the I-PACE can charge from 0% to 80% in "around 40 minutes" on a 100kW charger. The Wikipedia page claims that the 0-80% time is "45 minutes using a 100 kW charger." From the 3 Bjørn videos I linked in this post, it looks like you can expect a 0% to 80% charge in more like 50 minutes.

Personally I'm fine with 80kW. I'm not running out and trading it for an e-tron anytime soon. What bothers me is when people get something less than what they're led to believe they'll be getting when they buy.

Bjørn video is not correct. After h264 I get 87k from previous 84k and I did get range increase.

 

[Dutch-I-Pace]

It is actually worse - if Jaguar marketing would have stated peak charging rate of 100kW they at least wouldn't be lying. However Jaguar marketing said the I-pace could DC charge from 0-80% SoC in 40 minutes - which would require 100kW the entire time to achieve. The saddest part is that Jaguar is still claiming the I-pace can charge from 0-80% in 40 minutes - as some else posted the criteria/conditions for that to be possible can only be created in a lab.

I have done well over 80 100kW+ DC fast chargers at Ionity/Fastned stations - majority never got to 100kW, all but 2 get to 100kW for just 2-3 minutes.
Below are pictures of my best ever charging session - 6% to 64% SoC in just over 30 minutes averaging nearly 100kW per hour. It was summer 2019 when I returned from Italy, driving at night with temperatures around 70 degrees, light rain and prior to arriving to my 2nd charging stop I was little bit enjoying the Autobahn so guess battery temperature was up.

 

[Ken]

Do we know for certain whether the difference in charge rates is due to the chargers themselves or the car itself under varying charging conditions (temperature, SoC etc.)?

 

[jsimon7777]

It can. In a lab.

 

[Trielectric]

On AC charger breakers, the car tells the breaker what to do(except for an overcurrent trip can come from the breaker). I am also sure the car also tells a DC breaker-transformer what to do, but you have to assume the breaker with it's AC to DC transformer has some limits too. The fact that you have all sizes of DC transformers and of all kinds of different amp outputs, that can feed the battery directly, means there are different trip limits on every DC charger. I bet just the cooled charging cords, on the big DC chargers, have some power-temperature-water level inputs to load. I know I answered nothing with this!