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Discussion Starter #1
Can someone explain why the Model S with its standard battery of 75kW is rated for longer distance at 259miles vs I pace with its 90kW battery rated at a 240mile range?

My only guess would be weight and wind resistance but the Model S is just 15lbs lighter and has just a 0.05 lower drag coefficient. This does not seem to be enough to have the S go farther on a smaller battery.

Unless Telsa just has a superior battery. Or maybe Ipace consumes more electricity in it's operating systems.

I guess the range is just an estimate but I would think Jaguar would publish a higher estimate than Model S...after all Jaguar is spending a boat load on marketing this car.
 

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I likewise have a question about the range of 240 miles for a 90 kW battery.
It will be very interesting to see some real world numbers as new I-Pace owners
begin to report their driving range and watts/mile consumption.
 

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From the US brochure for the i-Pace:

Range* - Up to 240 miles.

* Figures shown are Manufacturer's driving estimates. Actual mileage may vary. EPA estimates not available at time of publication. See your local authorized Jaguar Retailer for updated EPA estimates.

Copyright 2018.

The Model S will have lower aero drag at higher speeds. However, this isn't that critical at speeds under 60 mph.
But it uses less efficient induction motors, where the i-Pace uses PM motors.

Note the i-Pace 90kWh battery is 84.7kWh usable. The rest is buffer for regen and storage at low charge.


It will be interesting to see where this all comes out at. No EPA filing yet. The Chevrolet Bolt EV was advertised at 200+ miles of range. Before retail sales began, the EPA numbers were released. It was 238 miles. Shortly afterwards, Chevrolet took several journalists and let them drive the Bolt EV down the coast of California. The trip was 240 miles door to door. All the cars made it. The journalists were not required to drive the cars in any certain fashion. One reporter ended up with close to 50 miles left. A well known Tesla Blogger Bjorn Nyland, was invited to drive a Bolt EV in Korea. He had 3 people in the car and luggage, and it was close to 300 miles.

The new World Standard is the WLTP test. Jaguar officially lists it as 480km (or 298 miles). The old NEDC standard was so exaggerated as to be useless.

My guess? For normal drivers, not in a hurry, on highways at 65 mph, we will see 270 miles or higher. But what fun would that be? I think Jaguar used the 240 mile number because they anticipated the reporters to have a 'heavy foot', and yes, one magazine took one on a road trip and found the 125 mph top speed limiter. So by 'de-rating' the preliminary numbers, they avoided a "Jaguar exaggerated" headline. Tesla never let the press do such things. Especially not take one on a racetrack or in the dirt, or on the Autobahn.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Well I am sure someone on the buy side of the industry transaction will eventually come up with a standardized range evaluation. As for now the numbers are all over the place due to variables such as weight, drag, battery, driving conditions, and driver dynamics.

But I think it was a mistake by Jaguar marketing to put out a lower estimated range on a higher battery against the Tesla.
 

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Well I am sure someone on the buy side of the industry transaction will eventually come up with a standardized range evaluation. As for now the numbers are all over the place due to variables such as weight, drag, battery, driving conditions, and driver dynamics.

But I think it was a mistake by Jaguar marketing to put out a lower estimated range on a higher battery against the Tesla.
The Tesla does not do well in stop and go driving, hence few people get anywhere near the EPA range in urban areas. And they don't want you to charge it all the way up, only 80%. The realistic range for MS75D is about 200 miles before charging.

The i-Pace has a bigger buffer and different chemistry. It could be like the Bolt, and it normally charges to 100%. So the realistic range will be EPA range in the i-Pace if that is the case. PM motors do well in stop and go driving unlike the induction motors.
 

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Well I am sure someone on the buy side of the industry transaction will eventually come up with a standardized range evaluation. As for now the numbers are all over the place due to variables such as weight, drag, battery, driving conditions, and driver dynamics.

But I think it was a mistake by Jaguar marketing to put out a lower estimated range on a higher battery against the Tesla.
Do note though that the i-Pace is targeting Model X buyers. The MX75D has 237 miles of EPA range. Coincidence? I think not.

When equipped the same, the i-Pace is always less money than the Tesla MS or MX. But the i-Pace comes with more features.

But the auto industry is SUV/CUV crazy right now. You aren't trying to compete to with sedans, you want to beat the competition's SUV/CUV.
 

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The only correct answer right now is that you're comparing a mfr's conservative estimate with an EPA rating, which are not apples and apples numbers. Wait until the EPA provides the I-Pace number before worrying about this.
 

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According to Giles Lenthall, I-Pace Product Manager:

The range on a single charge is 480 km.

This would put it at 298 miles.

Much more attractive than the 240 miles being floated around.:smile2:
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Now 298 miles makes more sense...Can we just round up to 300 miles? It is an estimate after all.

With 100kWh model X at 295 and 100kWh model S at 335...300 seems to be where it should be with a well designed efficient car.

Now the real test is if I can make the 280 miles from LA to Vegas on a single charge....could be a nail-biter...probably going to need the wind at my back, driving speed limit, no luggage and no traffic!
 

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Now the real test is if I can make the 280 miles from LA to Vegas on a single charge....could be a nail-biter...probably going to need the wind at my back, driving speed limit, no luggage and no traffic!
That's the real challenge because they not only built these as EV's but as a way to redefine what the automobile is. So people will want to use all they can while they can. Planning for areas you can charge, even if a little, will go a long way.
 

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Now 298 miles makes more sense...Can we just round up to 300 miles? It is an estimate after all.

With 100kWh model X at 295 and 100kWh model S at 335...300 seems to be where it should be with a well designed efficient car.

Now the real test is if I can make the 280 miles from LA to Vegas on a single charge....could be a nail-biter...probably going to need the wind at my back, driving speed limit, no luggage and no traffic!
There is already 5+ DCFCs near the I-10/I-15 interchange, a DCFC at Victorville, and soon the Baker site will come online.

I'm going to guess the DCFC at Baker will be here before i-Paces are. We will see. This will be the popular one, and there are not many CCS cars that can reach it. Bolts, i3 REx (but they have no support until Vegas).

The Vegas run is rough. Often headwinds, over 4700' climb, and Vegas itself is 2000', and it can get both very hot and very cold, even on the same day.

Tesla massively enlarged their support for this corridor. 16 station at Barstow, 40 at Baker. The "335mi" cars often recharge on this stretch.

Eventually as other brands of EVs come to market CCS will have good support on that stretch. They were supposed to already have the Mojave DCFC Corridor finished, but like all gov't projects, it's late. It's completely funded, the money is allocated, but they are not going forward it seems. California's taxpayer funded grid expansion has made more progress on H2 filling stations than DCFC stations.

My guess is they will scam the allocated EV money for other purposes. That's the way Jerry Brown rolls. Says one thing "2 million EVs in California!!!" and does the opposite. The words alone get the votes. It's our green-hypocrisy we must deal with.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Ya that Baker charging station is a must and looks like equipment is ready and could be utilized so they must be sorting thru some final red tape to get it online. You can actually "check in" to the station on the PlugShare app even though it isn't open lol.

But only four charging points in Baker...is that enough? What will be the average charge time at a station like that...15 min, 30 min, an hour or more? Seems like just more anxiety to get there and have to charge and find a line of cars fighting to get plugged in.

My Vegas stop has always been just south of Barstow at the Lenwood Rd exit. This is a perfect resting/refueling/coffee-up location 110 miles outside of the traffic insanity that is getting out of and bracing point for going back into the mouth of the beast which is LA. From there it is smooth sailing the 150 miles to and back from Vegas so it feels like the half-way point, at least time-wise if you travel at non-peak times/days along that desert 15 corridor. Note to EVgo and Chargepoint....This is where you need the Fast Charging! There are always a ton of cars fueling up at this location.
 

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I have been following the charging situation closely, it seems like it is about to get much better for a lot of the USA... Electrify America has hired a couple very large infrastructure contractors to expedite the phase 1 rollout, which is 484 locations, and 2000 + or - CCS chargers in the USA by June 2019, I checked in our state, and they are already submitted for 3 permits, so I think they is going to get done faster then expected.

https://www.electrifyamerica.com/our-plan

"Highway sites will be located along high-traffic corridors between metropolitan areas, including two cross-country routes, and will include between four and ten 150kW and 350kW individual DC fast chargers at each location before June 2019.
These sites will be located no more than ~120 miles apart and on average just 70 miles apart. Many shorter range EVs will benefit from 50kW DC fast charging on the Electrify America highway network, including any CHAdeMO equipped vehicles."
 

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It will be very interesting to see some real world numbers.
Can't tell you about i-Pace, but I can tell you about Tesla.

I have P90D (2 years old). The 90 range are "smaller than that" batteries, whereas the 75 and 100 are "actually about that" size. So assume my battery is a few kWh smaller than 90.

My realworld range on 100% charge is 220 miles. A non-Performance model gets a few more miles than that. That's around 75 MPH on motorway on a nice warm day. if I hit 50 MPH traffic for part of a journey, or roadworks, then that will give a boost to my range. I like to leave around 20 miles for "comfort", and if I have a journey more than 160 miles I charge to 100% (for that "can you just pick up X" phone call from Wife :) or a detour, or foul weather etc.). Daily I charge to 90% - there is no evidence of significant battery degradation and that's the "daily setting" the car came with. There is evidence that charging to 70% will prolong battery life, but not in the timescale that most people will own the car, and not enough to worry about. 100% charge, OTOH, should be "charge and then drive". But even then I am not anal about it.

In winter range is less, but not dramatically so. The real problem is a cold soaked battery (and Jag heat-pump arrangement may fair much better). The worst scenario is the travelling-salesman who stops for an hour at each location; in that time (at 32F/0C, or colder) the battery will get cold again. Limited regen when starting off and a huge "energy penalty" to get battery, cabin, and so on back up to "best operating temperature" eats into range. If I pre-condition the car (on "shore power") before I leave, and then have a simple, long, highway journey the range loss is perhaps 10% in winter.

Torrential rain is far worse for range than cold (although "cold" here is 32F/0C and not "40 below" :) )

For folk trying to guesstimate range (I don't think the manufacturer figures are much use; Tesla are optimistic (standard government figures), Bolt seems to have significantly underplayed its range capability - Nope, I dunno why either), personally I would be waiting for someone to drive it and properly log the energy use at a number of constant cruising speeds, rather than comparing manufacturers figures at all.

A Better Route Planner may of interest to folk guesstimating range. That site has recently changed the "Pick a model" from a drop down list of Tesla-only models, to having to, now, first select the Brand (only Tesla in the list just now) so I reckon they are planning to add i-Pace soon. I figure that the Tesla S or X 90 are going to be "similar" to the i-Pace, so that would probably do as a rough-guess.

You can choose a model, and "invent" a journey. You can then see how much battery used up, and from that figure out real-world-range. The site has a huge amount of real-world data collected (for Teslas), so the figures are really accurate (my real-world is about 1.5% different to the prediction), so easy enough to compare Model S, X and 3 for the same journey, and trying 10%, 20% whatever "over" / "under" the speed limit.

UK is not the same as USA in the sense that we don't "drive across the country", so my exceeds-range trips are mostly out-and-back in the day, but something between 220 max 100% range and 300 miles. For me I just stop to get enough juice to complete the journey home. That's not the same as hopping between Superchargers right across the country, of course, but the STATS I have for my car suggest that if I had 350 mile range I would never have a journey that needed charging, and at 300 mile range "almost never". As it is I charge [i.e. away from home] on one or two days a month. I have the benefit of Supercharger network of course, and it is spot-on for doing the job. Park, plug in, walk away. Whilst having a coffee/whatever then check the Charge on the phone APP. Walk back, unplug, drive off.

By comparison the (current) public charging in the UK is utterly hopeless. Myriads of different companies, all with their own APPs, many of which require sufficient money on-deposit before you charge, and if I look at Plugshare something like 25% of the sites in my area have at least one user-report in the last month of "could not charge". Broken pump is not uncommon, and time-to-fix is far longer than is reasonable.

Typically only one or two pumps at each site, all relatively slow, so high chance of Broken or Occupied (and if occupied, given the slow charge rate, then "for some time"). CCS is coming, but of course it takes time (and money ...) to rollout a decent number of stalls nationwide.

The slow-charging public network is absolutely fine if, for example, shopping if I can plug in for an hour (if using CHAdeMO) or several (if using Type-2). I reckon I have never had a public charging experience that took less than 5 minutes to get connected and disconnect. Frequently they involve me phoning the company and getting them to remote-start the charge (because APP won't work or somesuch), so "overhead" time can be 10 minutes - that would have already got me 20% charge at Supercharger ...) . Things can only improve ... but it really needs to be just like the Tesla experience (or, for that matter, the Gas experience - arrive, park, pump, pay, leave :) ) so I hope fast-CCS will deliver just that.

All the best to Jag and the i-Pace. The world needs as many credible players as possible. My only disappointment with Jag is the 20K units per annum limit, which I assume is a battery availability limit, and that's going to be the same for all other Marques until the battery industry has some Goliath sized factories of their own.
 

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I got 200+ miles per battery on the Bolt, and am thinking the I-Pace should get roughly the same. This was plenty for me 99 days out of 100, and on the 100th day I just borrowed my wife's gas car or rented.

Electric cars (even Teslas) are still best suited for city and local driving. I charge at home and expect never to need or want to use a public charger for the I-Pace. I expect the majority of I-Pace owners will have similar attitudes toward public charging hassles - i.e. just say no.

If public charging infrastructure ever improves greatly, I might take the I-Pace on a road trip, just for fun. But I'm not holding my breath - that will take many years. And really, long trips are what gasoline is for!
 

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Or jet fuel. :D
 

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I got 200+ miles per battery on the Bolt, and am thinking the I-Pace should get roughly the same. This was plenty for me 99 days out of 100
+1

Electric cars (even Teslas) are still best suited for city and local driving
different strokes for different folks, and all that, but I have come to dislike ICE driving. Maybe Musk has addled my brain ...

AutoPilot is hugely less tiring than driving manually. I know you don't need a Tesla for that Traffic Aware Cruise Control plus Stay in Lane stuff, so I am sure this applies to all flavours.

People told me this before I got the Tesla and I didn't believe them. I do not mind driving, I've driven long days often all my life. So what. But now I've had it I can, also, attest to the difference it makes to either a long highway journey, or bumper-t-bumper / stop-start traffic. On long days I arrive far more refreshed. On late-at-night journeys I am not driving down the cats-eye ("something BOTs" in USA-speak I think??) to stay wake the last few miles of the journey.

I only have that capability on a Tesla, so I take that on all longer journeys too, and make some lifestyle changes, now-and-again, to accommodate it, specifically in order to have that less-tiring option.
 

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I haven't heard any detailed reports of the i-Pace "self-steering" system. But like Tesla, it checks to see if your hand is on the wheel now and then. Delay is unknown. It also claims to check to see if you are nodding-off while driving. No reports on this either.
Most cars over $30k now offer Adaptive Cruise Control, and Lane Keep Assist / Lane Departure Warning, as does the i-Pace.

The i-Pace does lack thermal imaging though, and 180° view digital rearview mirror.

I'm going to guess that Tesla's AP system as it sits now will offer better auto-steering than the i-Pace. Cadillac's system is US only, and only operates on freeways where there is nothing risky about the road, but it is hands-free and checks to make sure you are watching the road. But the loaded Cadillac is $90k.

As far as automatic braking goes, I think Cadillac is winning in this field right now. The system is very good, and even works when backing up and at high speeds.
 

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Thermal imaging would be nice. I wonder if it is able to see people on a hot day, when body temp and air temp are about the same. The 180 degree (give or take) rearview mirror is one of the best features on the Bolt.

I would guess same as you the Tesla autosteering is better than I-Pace, and also more likely to benefit from future software improvements.
 

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AutoPilot is hugely less tiring than driving manually.
I've heard this, but have never had the feature, and so have difficulty understanding it. It seems to me the only way to be less tired is to be less alert, and being less alert is what kills Autopilot customers.

Still, I ordered the ACC and steering assist on the I-Pace, and will give them a try. I expect I may be too cautious to use the steering assist much, however.
 
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