[LowOnCash]

Hello All - In an attempt to wrap my head around I Pace’s miles verses kw, I decided to take another short “Test-Ride” this morning to check some usage and charging numbers since the temperature was near 70 today.

I live in North Georgia where our terrain is somewhat hilly, so I selected low regen to avoid regen (braking) on the downgrades to enable the car to coast freely. I also used the throttle to keep the needle centered on downgrades so the car would accelerate freely. There were no pre-heating prior to the trip and no accessories or heat was used. The car is Pre-H244.

The car & battery temperature (garaged) this morning was about 69 degrees. I drove a total of 52 miles, 25 miles at 55-60 mph on a 4 lane, and 27 miles at 35-45 mph on a 2 lane. The car was running a total of 91 minutes.

After a full charge the night before, the GOM showed 275 miles when I first opened the door. As usual, by the time I got down my driveway, I started the trip with 265 miles showing.

I drove about half way and had breakfast, then drove to a park then traveled home (3 legs). The trip totaled 52 miles total. The trip decreased my 265 miles, to only 159 miles. This means it required 106 miles of GOM to travel only 52 miles, or about 2 miles of GOM for each 1 mile traveled.

Charging - After being parked for an hour, I plugged in my Level 2 JuiceBox to top off the battery.

WattCat showed the battery capacity at 51 kw when I began charging. After a full charge, it showed 81.75 kw, or 30.75 kw to fully charge. This figure is not correct since the JuiceBox showed it only delivered 21 kw to fully charge. (with loses)

In retrospect, the IPace showed the battery at 64% w/ 159 miles remaining. After a full charge, JuiceBox shows it delivered 21kw. When I take the 21 kw and divide it by the 52 miles traveled, it shows my consumption at 2.47 miles per Kw. Even more confusing, my IPace journeys logged the 52 miles on three legs @ 3.21/2.58/ 3.72 mi/kw average, far from my true milage.

In conclusion - nothing makes any sense or coincides with any other measurements. The cars actual mileage, GOM, I Pace journeys, WattCatt, are all totally off from each other. Of all the many electric cars I’ve owned, my I Pace is by far the most unpredictable when it comes to achieving projected milage and re-charging.

Regards - Mike

 

[sciencegeek]

You have a bad battery:

Charging: you're putting in fewer kWh than what the API/WattCat reports. Instead of having accepted 30.75 kWh it only accepted ca. 21kWh minus the L2 charging loss, or about 19 kWh. 19/30.75 = 62%.

Discharging (driving): You drove 51 miles and used 100% - 64% = 36% of battery capacity. Your range therefore is 150 miles, or approximately two thirds of what it should be.

Conclusion: Your battery is only about two thirds capacity of what it should be.

I would do more measurements so that you have definitive data with which to go to JLR.

Don't let WattCat's kWh numbers confuse you. The API incorrectly reports kWh with older software (this was my case as well, which is why it took me forever and repeated measurements to figure this out.)

 

[rcomeau]

Something definitely does not look right. First, if it took 36% of your battery to go 52 miles, you total range is only 144m. that seems pretty low. Also, if it took 30.75kw to recharge, then the battery capacity is 85kw (30.75/.36). On th either hand using the 21kw, then the battery capacity would be 58kw. Neither seem totally right.

 

[LowOnCash]

Thanks for the reply - While I agree its confusing - the JuiceBox's 21kw recharge is very accurate, so Wattcat is in error there was not 31kw put back in the pack as it suggest.

When I use my low average for that trip of 2.47 mi/kw times 84, it calculates to 207 miles which is about average for most I Pace owners. Regretfully neither the GOM, Wattcat or I Pace Journeys coincide with each other, the only part that makes sense is your actual miles divided by the Kw to replace the charge.

Thanks Mike

 

[LowOnCash]

Something definitely does not look right. First, if it took 36% of your battery to go 52 miles, you total range is only 144m. that seems pretty low. Also, if it took 30.75kw to recharge, then the battery capacity is 85kw (30.75/.36). On th either hand using the 21kw, then the battery capacity would be 58kw. Neither seem totally right.

Thanks for the reply - It's my guess this confirms that when my GOM shows 0 miles there is possible 20% still in the battery. Even at my low 2.47 miles per kw average for that trip its comes up with 207 miles which is average for Ipace.



Mike

 

[rcomeau]

I would not make any observations based on the GOM, and you are assuming 84kWH for the battery. I noted in the past (and others as well) that that number is as reliable as using groundhogs and shadows to predict the arrival of spring. As ScienceGeek noted, if your state if charge went from 100% to 64%, you used 34% to drive 52 miles. This is measured data with no assumptions. So the total miles for 100% of charge (assuming constant consumption and linear battery discharge), you'd get 52/0.36, or 144.4 miles range for a full charge (with reasonable assumptions to expect at least a close approximation).

On the other hand, of you put 21kWh to refill (generously assuming 100% efficiency), then the total battery capacity would be 21kWh/0.34, or 58.3kWh.

Am I missing something?

 

[CurtSprings2]

How many times are we going to discuss this problem on both the U.K. and U.S. forum? You have a problem somewhere in the battery or battery management system. Contact your dealer as multiple members have recommended. We can't fix your car here.

 

[rcomeau]

How many times are we going to discuss this problem on both the U.K. and U.S. forum? You have a problem somewhere in the battery or battery management system. Contact your dealer as multiple members have recommended. We can't fix your car here.

No need to get snippy :wink2:. Problems like this allow us to explore different aspects of the car, software and which parameters are accurate and which are not and how they are related.

 

[Trielectric]

My Ford Focus Electric, which had good aftermarket instrumentation readings on charging and battery kW, and I had a utility meter on my charging supply line, it took 18.2kW to fully charge the battery from 0kW to 16kW. So 2.2kW was lost to heat. I am not sure if your statement "with loses" means you already took the losses out, or you haven't took the loses out. I am assuming you lost about 2.9kW to heat, so your full charge that got in the battery was 18.1kW. 52miles driven divided by 18.1kW = 2.87m/kW x 84kW= 241 miles range. That is excellent mileage while traveling at +45mph. You beat the EPA estimate of 234 miles.(which is supposed to be based on ~ 45mph.)

 

[LowOnCash]

How many times are we going to discuss this problem on both the U.K. and U.S. forum? You have a problem somewhere in the battery or battery management system. Contact your dealer as multiple members have recommended. We can't fix your car here.

Thanks for the reply Curt but rest assured nobody is asking you or anyone to fix my car, there's nothing broken.

I basically wanted to share an accurate good temperature low speed test where instead of relying on speculation, instrumentation, gauges, GOM's or journey counters, I would instead simply drive the car 50 miles in ideal conditions then just filled the tank again to determine the EV's true mileage. It's now clear the cars remaining mileage and percentage of charge (SOC) and information are incorrect.

Here's some real facts - when I divide my 52 miles by the 21kw needed to fill the battery, it averages 2.47 miles per kw or 207 miles for a 84 kw pack - this is average mileage for the I Pace. Therefore, nothing is broke other than I-Pace's time-keeping of instrumentation and gauges. In addition, the I-Pace's processor is also sending incorrect information to Wattcat, causing it to be incorrect as well to show me I added 30 kw when in fact it was only 21kw.

Is this starting to make sense to you now?

Enjoy - Mike

 

[MHK]

I try to compare my Tesla S with my Ipace energy consumption. IPace consumes 40kwh /100mi where as my Tesla S consumes 34kwh/100mi with the weather around 45 degrees. After the latest software update, I saw 260 miles for the first charge and after that it was always between 218 and 225 displayed on GOM for full charge. I don't trust GOM displayed numbers.

 

[CurtSprings2]

How many times are we going to discuss this problem on both the U.K. and U.S. forum? You have a problem somewhere in the battery or battery management system. Contact your dealer as multiple members have recommended. We can't fix your car here.

No need to get snippy [img= class=inlineimg]https://www.i-paceforum.com/forum/images/I-PaceForum/smilies/tango_face_wink.png[/img]. Problems like this allow us to explore different aspects of the car, software and which parameters are accurate and which are not and how they are related.

I'm not snippy, lol, that's a gross understatement. What I'm totally angry about is that this specific owner has reported this specific problem in multiple threads on 2 different forums and not taken steps to get the car fixed. Many, many members have been kind and tried to convince him that a problem exists and he rejects the advice. I had a friend who bitterly complained about his wife every morning for a year but refused to make a change. I had to tell him to take his complaints elsewhere if he didn't want to take action.

 

[CurtSprings2]

How many times are we going to discuss this problem on both the U.K. and U.S. forum? You have a problem somewhere in the battery or battery management system. Contact your dealer as multiple members have recommended. We can't fix your car here.

Thanks for the reply Curt but rest assured nobody is asking you or anyone to fix my car, there's nothing broken.

I basically wanted to share an accurate good temperature low speed test where instead of relying on speculation, instrumentation, gauges, GOM's or journey counters, I would instead simply drive the car 50 miles in ideal conditions then just filled the tank again to determine the EV's true mileage. It's now clear the cars remaining mileage and percentage of charge (SOC) and information are incorrect.

Here's some real facts - when I divide my 52 miles by the 21kw needed to fill the battery, it averages 2.47 miles per kw or 207 miles for a 84 kw pack - this is average mileage for the I Pace. Therefore, nothing is broke other than I-Pace's time-keeping of instrumentation and gauges. In addition, the I-Pace's processor is also sending incorrect information to Wattcat, causing it to be incorrect as well to show me I added 30 kw when in fact it was only 21kw.

Is this starting to make sense to you now?

Enjoy - Mike

Your conclusions are incorrect and I won't comment anymore. There's an old saying that you can't argue with st***.

 

[sciencegeek]

Mike, if the 19 kWh that actually got into the car with your level 2 charger is 36% of your battery capacity then your battery is only 19kWh/0.36 = 53kWh. HTH

 

[rcomeau]

Thanks for the reply Curt but rest assured nobody is asking you or anyone to fix my car, there's nothing broken.

I basically wanted to share an accurate good temperature low speed test where instead of relying on speculation, instrumentation, gauges, GOM's or journey counters, I would instead simply drive the car 50 miles in ideal conditions then just filled the tank again to determine the EV's true mileage. It's now clear the cars remaining mileage and percentage of charge (SOC) and information are incorrect.

Here's some real facts - when I divide my 52 miles by the 21kw needed to fill the battery, it averages 2.47 miles per kw or 207 miles for a 84 kw pack - this is average mileage for the I Pace. Therefore, nothing is broke other than I-Pace's time-keeping of instrumentation and gauges. In addition, the I-Pace's processor is also sending incorrect information to Wattcat, causing it to be incorrect as well to show me I added 30 kw when in fact it was only 21kw.

Is this starting to make sense to you now?

Enjoy - Mike

You are inserting an assumption into your analysis and I think this is why you may be missing our point. You have some measured values:

1: The car travelled 52km.
2: The battery state of charge changed from 100% to 64%, so a change of 34%.
3: You refilled with 21kWh reported by your charger (ignoring charge losses).

From this, you calculate that your consumption was 2.47 m/kWh. so far so good.

NOW, if you ASSUME a good battery, then 2.47 m/kWh * 84kWh = 207m, so that suggests the consumption is probably right, but it says NOTHING about your battery health since you are assuming 84kWh. All that can tell you in consumption is about right.

Look at another result of your measurement. 54m consumed 34% of your battery, You can use this to estimate your battery consumption. IF your battery were indeed 84kWh, then 54m should have only consumed 25%, NOT 34%. from your own 34% measurement, 21kWh/34% = 61.7 kWh, below the assumed 84kWh. Something is not right with your battery or the measured data.

The next test would be to drive a longer trip. If you battery is good, you should be able to get 207m, or close. If your battery is having issues, then you will get closer to 152m. Drive that (or a little less so you don't get stuck) and then look at the miles driven and the charge level. That test will be conclusive.

 

[kkemp]

@rcomeau: You hit the nail on the head, but you switched to 54 miles about halfway through and used km at the start. I assume you meant 52 miles throughout the entire post.

 

[LowOnCash]

Mike, if the 19 kWh that actually got into the car with your level 2 charger is 36% of your battery capacity then your battery is only 19kWh/0.36 = 53kWh. HTH

I respectably disagree - Having been working with lithium powered military drone aircraft since the early 90's, I can assure you that lithium cells don't just quit or disappear in numbers. In addition, a car with only 2000 miles would not degrade the health either. If 20-30% of the cells were bad as you said the processor would would error out and the pack could neither be used nor charged.



Regards -Mike

 

[Sbingham60]

I respectably disagree - Having been working with lithium powered military drone aircraft since the early 90's, I can assure you that lithium cells don't just quit or disappear in numbers. In addition, a car with only 2000 miles would not degrade the health either. If 20-30% of the cells were bad as you said the processor would would error out and the pack could neither be used nor charged.



Regards -Mike

Mike - some other members have had modules fail and required replacements. There are 36 modules in the HV Battery. The individual cells may be fine, but modules have failed. I think that is the point. It took a while for some to prove this was the case. Sciencegeek posted this thread - https://www.i-paceforum.com/forum/474-jaguar-i-pace-ev-issues-problems/3973-bad-battery-finding-out-required-detective-work.html
Early on, JLR was replacing the entire pack. the workshop manual has been updated with instructions to diagnose and replace individual modules.

You can compare your findings and of course we'd like to continue to see your reporting on discrepancies which are useful to the forum. This being the first EV for JLR, I would expect lots of surprises.

 

[rcomeau]

Mike, if the 19 kWh that actually got into the car with your level 2 charger is 36% of your battery capacity then your battery is only 19kWh/0.36 = 53kWh. HTH

I respectably disagree - Having been working with lithium powered military drone aircraft since the early 90's, I can assure you that lithium cells don't just quit or disappear in numbers. In addition, a car with only 2000 miles would not degrade the health either. If 20-30% of the cells were bad as you said the processor would would error out and the pack could neither be used nor charged.



Regards -Mike

You may not agree, but the math can’t lie. We are either missing something or a module has failed. Certainly this is not normal degradation but something is not right with your pack. Experience with drones and batteries can’t compete with real measurements. Military equipment is built to a different standard than consumer goods. Other owners have had packs fail exactly as you are observing so it cannot be discounted unless something else that explains what you are seeing comes to light.

 

[CurtSprings2]

I respectably disagree - Having been working with lithium powered military drone aircraft since the early 90's, I can assure you that lithium cells don't just quit or disappear in numbers. In addition, a car with only 2000 miles would not degrade the health either. If 20-30% of the cells were bad as you said the processor would would error out and the pack could neither be used nor charged.

Regards -Mike

You can prove everyone wrong and give yourself peace of mind by taking the car on a 200 mile trip and see what happens. Even 180 or 190 will work. I double-dog-dare you.