[Gelbkreutz]

Now for a bit of humor - I just opened my letter and on the back in RED says the Software required to complete the repair is not available.... you will get a second notification letter when it is ready.

Wasn't that remark about the final fix (which may not be software but module replacement).

 

[Gelbkreutz]

Actually, I am not sure this is bad for long trips. I wouldn't stay long enough at a charger to go past 80% anyway. But, do we know anything about charging speeds? I hope they didn't curb those...

 

[KevinDell]

…
The letter seems to indicate that the final remedy will be software based (advanced detection and perhaps control of charging) rather than new hardware (modules/batteries).
…

From the H514 documentation, we read
“Vehicles recalled as part of the H441, H459 or H471 safety recalls have subsequently experienced thermal overload. The diagnostic software updates have been identified as not providing an appropriate level of protection…Owners who have previously had their vehicle updated with the improved diagnostic software are under the impression that their vehicle is protected from thermal overload which, for 2019MY vehicles may not be the case.”

The origin of H514 is an admission that the multiple attempts so far to use software to detect a fault is unreliable.

I can understand why the recall suggests further software as the final solution (for now). LGES will surely be trying to limit their financial exposure and JLR cannot mention battery replacements without agreement with LGES and a timeline for delivery of several thousand battery packs.

Moreover, a software fix? Again, I’m no engineer, but how does a software patch solve a hardware manufacturing defect that will permanently pose a risk unless the hardware is physically replaced? H514 already shows that it doesn’t!

 

[rcomeau]

From the H514 documentation, we read
“Vehicles recalled as part of the H441, H459 or H471 safety recalls have subsequently experienced thermal overload. The diagnostic software updates have been identified as not providing an appropriate level of protection…Owners who have previously had their vehicle updated with the improved diagnostic software are under the impression that their vehicle is protected from thermal overload which, for 2019MY vehicles may not be the case.”

The origin of H514 is an admission that the multiple attempts so far to use software to detect a fault is unreliable.

I can understand why the recall suggests further software as the final solution (for now). LGES will surely be trying to limit their financial exposure and JLR cannot mention battery replacements without agreement with LGES and a timeline for delivery of several thousand battery packs.

Moreover, a software fix? Again, I’m no engineer, but how does a software patch solve a hardware manufacturing defect that will permanently pose a risk unless the hardware is physically replaced? H514 already shows that it doesn’t!

Many of us that have had the H441 update have gone on to have suspect cells identified by it and replaced. Whether these were false positives or if other suspect cells are still being missed is something the engineers with all the data and presumably battery packs on test benches replicating the failures can say. They are likely still looking for precursors to failure that the existing monitoring hardware would be able to spot reliably with software improvements. Seems the answer is no so far, but they were likely at least partially successful if the cells people have had replaced were indeed headed for failure. I presume my car is at least a bit safer having had 2 cells replaced.

 

[dplaser]

No amount of software can resolve the failing of defective high voltage cell module hardware. This car was not a success for Jaguar and they would like to just turn their backs on it but they can't. Their H514 software Band-Aid really is there as a software patch to turn off the suspected high risk modules to mitigate battery explosion. Unless there is a brand new complete battery replacement for these cars, this issue will go on indefinitely.

 

[Verbow]

I literally received both the “Traction battery fault detected” and the recall letter this week - in that order.

When the error message occurred my charge began limiting itself to 70%. What good would the update give me other than possibly giving me MORE charge than I already have? Or - as someone mentioned above - does the 70% charge limit indicate a faulty cell - enabling replacement in this case and largely mitigating some of the H514 recall issues? Guess it’s a conversation to be had with the dealer…

I live in Chicago and with winter coming up both parking and charging will be a nightmare without a fix. I also have an F-Type AWD I store for the winter but thinking that may need to become my main vehicle until a fix comes along. Ugh…

 

[KevinDell]

No amount of software can resolve the failing of defective high voltage cell module hardware. This car was not a success for Jaguar and they would like to just turn their backs on it but they can't. Their H514 software Band-Aid really is there as a software patch to turn off the suspected high risk modules to mitigate battery explosion. Unless there is a brand new complete battery replacement for these cars, this issue will go on indefinitely.

I agree, it seems that only new battery packs will solve this. GM promised this but then rowed back as LGES had developed some magic software (similar to H441), leaving many thousands of angry owners with no new battery. GM/LGES did replace batteries in earlier (higher risk) vehicles and then, for later cars, tried to use the software, lifting the restriction after 10000 miles if no faulty cells were detected. H514 is now showing that this is unsafe (for the I-Pace at least) as fires have broken out before further defective cell detection. Problem is, if JLR offer battery replacement now, 2500 owners will be banging on dealers’ doors wanting to know when their new battery will be arriving! So, I think JLR and LGES are simply buying time.

 

[Qtown charger]

.. No amount of software can resolve the failing of defective high voltage cell module hardware ....

While it has been accepted by LG, and JLR, that there were manufacturing issues (and possibly still so), this defect is not the full story - otherwise the defective batteries would be going up in flames immediately they are put into service.

Some factor is combining with the defect to lead the battery to overheating and catching fire. Without detailed analysis of the modules replaced, we the owners, have no idea what this might be and how it could be minimized. It is this factor(s) that can be better controlled by software changes (charging rate, charge levels, temperature etc).

Yes, you'll always have a battery cell with a misfolded component, but with appropriate software control this defect can be minimized or made insignificant.

 

[KevinDell]

While it has been accepted by LG, and JLR, that there were manufacturing issues (and possibly still so), this defect is not the full story - otherwise the defective batteries would be going up in flames immediately they are put into service.

Some factor is combining with the defect to lead the battery to overheating and catching fire. Without detailed analysis of the modules replaced, we the owners, have no idea what this might be and how it could be minimized. It is this factor(s) that can be better controlled by software changes (charging rate, charge levels, temperature etc).

Yes, you'll always have a battery cell with a misfolded component, but with appropriate software control this defect can be minimized or made insignificant.

You may be right but owners are not going to accept a permanent limitation of 80% charge and a reduction to the (already low) maximum charging rate. LGES are probably pushing this solution but I believe that Jaguar are fighting our corner, and their brand image, to provide a permanent solution that enables normal operation of the vehicle. This takes time.

 

[Ayepace]

"... reduction to the (already low) maximum charging rate".

Why do you type this? Nowhere has the recall documentation stated that the charging rate is reduced.
My charging rate actually went up consistently with H441 to what Jaguar stated was the maximum. See https://www.i-paceforum.com/threads/my-best-charging-ever.8655/?post_id=93652#post-93652
Low perhaps to newer cars and hardware, but max for what the 2019-2020s can handle.

 

[KevinDell]

"... reduction to the (already low) maximum charging rate".

Why do you type this? Nowhere has the recall documentation stated that the charging rate is reduced.

I was simply responding to @Qtown charger (post #148) suggesting that the final fix might be further software: “It is this factor(s) that can be better controlled by software changes (charging rate, charge levels, temperature etc).”

 

[rcomeau]

I literally received both the “Traction battery fault detected” and the recall letter this week - in that order.

When the error message occurred my charge began limiting itself to 70%. What good would the update give me other than possibly giving me MORE charge than I already have? Or - as someone mentioned above - does the 70% charge limit indicate a faulty cell - enabling replacement in this case and largely mitigating some of the H514 recall issues? Guess it’s a conversation to be had with the dealer…

I live in Chicago and with winter coming up both parking and charging will be a nightmare without a fix. I also have an F-Type AWD I store for the winter but thinking that may need to become my main vehicle until a fix comes along. Ugh…

With the latest software, charge is limited to 80% if no failure has been detected. If a failure is detected, then the charge is reduced further to 72 or 73% as was the case before the expanded recall. The 80% limit is a risk based limit. They have determined that the software's ability to detect a bad cell is not perfect and/or the manufacturing quality records are suspect, so they don't trust it enough to let you charge to 100% (unless you live outside the US where apparently the laws of statistics are somehow different).

 

[Verbow]

With the latest software, charge is limited to 80% if no failure has been detected. If a failure is detected, then the charge is reduced further to 72 or 73% as was the case before the expanded recall. The 80% limit is a risk based limit. They have determined that the software's ability to detect a bad cell is not perfect and/or the manufacturing quality records are suspect, so they don't trust it enough to let you charge to 100% (unless you live outside the US where apparently the laws of statistics are somehow different).

Mine reached 70% before it said “fully charged”.

I guess my point was won’t they have to fix the faulty cell to make the error message disappear? Definitely going to make sure a loaner is available before I take it in …

 

[rcomeau]

Mine reached 70% before it said “fully charged”.

I guess my point was won’t they have to fix the faulty cell to make the error message disappear? Definitely going to make sure a loaner is available before I take it in …

Odd that it changed from the arbitrary 72% to 70%. Yes, a module would need to be replaced to get from 70 "back" to 80%. The question is, will they, or will they say what they have been saying to the earlier full pack recall cars which is no replaced modules since the whole pack is getting replaced at some point.

 

[markgroce]

Odd that it changed from the arbitrary 72% to 70%. Yes, a module would need to be replaced to get from 70 "back" to 80%. The question is, will they, or will they say what they have been saying to the earlier full pack recall cars which is no replaced modules since the whole pack is getting replaced at some point.

^To your point. Mine went in the first of August for a cell replacement. This was a few months after the H441 software. I asked about the H514 update and was told they would charge it to 100%. So I’m not sure they even knew about it. Pretty sure Jaguar informed him of the 80% charge limit. Two weeks later was offered $18k buy out. Told them I wanted a battery and short of that replace the bad cell. That was 2 weeks ago, still sitting and no progress.

 

[Verbow]

^To your point. Mine went in the first of August for a cell replacement. This was a few months after the H441 software. I asked about the H514 update and was told they would charge it to 100%. So I’m not sure they even knew about it. Pretty sure Jaguar informed him of the 80% charge limit. Two weeks later was offered $18k buy out. Told them I wanted a battery and short of that replace the bad cell. That was 2 weeks ago, still sitting and no progress.

Not encouraging.

There’s another thread where someone said they’ve heard multiple instances of offers of close to $60k trade-in towards a new model. I’m skeptical but will certainly be bringing it up to my dealer when I take the car in.

 

[rcomeau]

^To your point. Mine went in the first of August for a cell replacement. This was a few months after the H441 software. I asked about the H514 update and was told they would charge it to 100%. So I’m not sure they even knew about it. Pretty sure Jaguar informed him of the 80% charge limit. Two weeks later was offered $18k buy out. Told them I wanted a battery and short of that replace the bad cell. That was 2 weeks ago, still sitting and no progress.

Yeah, you are in the worst case scenario. They won't replace the bad cell because the entire pack is suspect. I find it odd to see such a wide array of buyback offers from downright insulting to essentially a new car for free.

 

[Reddo]

My 2020 car is giving me 103KW charging for the first minutes since the H441 update and I'm also getting incredible range but plenty of faults:

I've not heard anything about a corresponding recall notice in the UK.

In particular my car has been throwing lots of high voltage faults - I went to turn around on a steep inclined farm track today, suddenly a tortoise appeared on the dash, it would only them move a few centimeters per second, in just reverse, before completely stopping. Along with causing a 40 tonne sugar beet lorry to reverse half a mile, because I was blocking the single track road... all manner of faults then displayed when pressing start:

"OK to drive with caution High voltage system fault detected"
"OK to drive with caution Autonomous Emergency Braking not available"
"OK to drive with caution Stability control not available"
"OK to drive with caution High voltage system fault detected" (again)
"Intelligent Emergency Braking system not available"
"OK to drive with caution High voltage system fault detected" (again)
"Forward alert not available"
"OK to drive with caution High voltage system fault detected" (again)
"OK to drive with caution Restricted performance" red warning
"OK to drive with caution High voltage system fault detected" (again)
"ASPC not available"
"OK to drive with caution Restricted performance" Tortoise!
"OK to drive with caution High voltage system fault detected" (again)

The car would not move at all.

The thing is - even driving very enthusiastically I get 260 miles ( with regen set to low) when it is just 15 degrees C despite running 255/60R18 tyres. The car only throws the faults since I went to a 150KW charger at BP East Dereham UK. When the SOC is over 95% it now faults several times per journey.

On this occasion disconnecting the larger, then the smaller aux batteries and reconnecting both cleared all faults and the car then ran flawlessly barring a few more high voltage alerts for about 5 minutes.

I had recently replaced both of these batteries myself after a previous breakdown.

Sadly I have zero confidence in the competence of dealerships to troubleshoot such issues.

Barring that - it is great to drive!

 

[markgroce]

Yeah, you are in the worst case scenario. They won't replace the bad cell because the entire pack is suspect. I find it odd to see such a wide array of buyback offers from downright insulting to essentially a new car for free.

Yeah, you are in the worst case scenario. They won't replace the bad cell because the entire pack is suspect. I find it odd to see such a wide array of buyback offers from downright insulting to essentially a new car for free.

Called the service manager for third time today, didn’t leave a message this time. It’s been 3 months sitting in their lot. They did give me a loaner but I’d really like my car back. I understand the service managers reluctance to tear the battery down and replace one cell while other cells are still suspect.

 

[Qtown charger]

Not encouraging.

There’s another thread where someone said they’ve heard multiple instances of offers of close to $60k trade-in towards a new model. I’m skeptical but will certainly be bringing it up to my dealer when I take the car in.

These offers were all under the H484 recall. Those effected by the H441 and H514 recalls only are NOT getting these offers.