EV driver for 7 years now
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Model S for 3 years and 50,000 miles. Can't wait to get another EV. Either a used X100D or a new iPace... or Model Y.
Have to see them both to compare before I pick one.
I'll never buy another gas car again though!
Have to see them both to compare before I pick one.
I'll never buy another gas car again though!
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Snap. Tesla Model-S driver for 2+ years, 27K miles p.a., and I hugely prefer driving it to ICE (but no other EV experience to compare against).
Disappointed by Tesla Back Office - long delay I can cope with, but not support-staff saying "Parts will be here tomorrow" - if their systems don't know arrival time of parts, even if not-yet-manufactured, to the minute then in this day-and-age they should do. Long waits for service (6 weeks), repeated attempts to fix some minor issues failed (cold feet, static on radio). I could forgive them the growing pains if their systems meant that they actually knew the WHEN part as I could then plan for the delay.
But ...
EV inherently less maintenance and thus more reliable (although all the Gizmos increase chance of failure, but many of those any spanner-wielder can fix)
Supercharger network is how the rest needs to be: "Plug-in, walk-away". In UK 3rd party charging is a joke - looking on Plugshare for CCS (50 kW max, so far) in my area there are 25 or so, which should be plenty, but: 50% of them have a report of "Failed to charge" fault reported in the last 4 weeks
and typically only one, maybe two, pumps per location so chance of wait high, and time-to-wait likely long (a 20 Stall supercharger with average dwell-time of 20 minutes is going to change at one-a-minute). My 3rd party charges are relatively few, so a small sample size, but 40-50% of those have required a phone call to initiate (even though I have the APP), and 20% have failed to charge at all (pump broken, phone-call unable to initiate charge). Many have taken more than 5-10 minutes to connect / disconnect - I would have got 30 miles at a Supercharger in that interval! It can only get better though ...OTA updates. I have had numerous new "improvements" in the 2 years of ownership - improvements to AEB (ability to detect the car two-in-front is braking), Summon, Auto-Park, massive improvements to AutoPilot (Version 1 on my car), "Chill" driving mode, Graphic Equaliser changes from 3-slider to 5-slider, better maps and SatNav (not once was I offered the option to upgrade SatNav in all the VW cars I have ever owned - not even for money!), and so on. And SWAG for referring new buyers
I think the Jag looks great - both in flesh and on paper, and battery size is good.
Negatives for me are:
- lack of widespread CCS rollout as yet (which of course won't be a problem for significant number of drivers who don't do more than 200 miles in a day)
- the charge-rate
- lack of good real-world wH/mile figures at speeds between 50 and 80 MPH, and data on Taper. (I suspect that Telsa scores much better on these, but maybe not? More efficient motors than Model-S/X and heat-pump may have better range in Winter, especially for stop./start "travelling salesman" which is a [Winter] killer for EV.)
- lack of batteries to ramp-up. Huge opportunity for Jag being first-of-the-rest to market, but 20K units p.a. is going to miss the boat (and disappoint many wannabees)
+1
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Electromotive propulsion is a better technology for moving automotive vehicles.
There are downsides as well.
- Wake up with a 'full tank'
- Quick cabin heating and cooling.
- Instant throttle response at all speeds.
- No effect due to high density altitude.
- Fewer moving parts.
- Physiological motivation for reduction in power use per mile.
- Tailpipe emission free.
- Solar power can allow you to generate your own gasoline. Home refineries aren't easily possible.
- Little 'idle time' emissions.
- When powered by fossil fuels, it uses less fuel per mile.
- No engine warmup required.
- More flexibility in chassis design.
- Less prone to roll-over or loss of control due to low CG and fully digital stability control.
- Longer brake life.
- Can be run in a closed garage, or driving with hatchback open.
- Can be fueled during surplus powerplant output at night.
- Less time wasted refueling per 10,000 miles for most owners.
- "Free fuel" can be found in some locations.
- Partial throttle operation actually improves efficiency when piston engines (except diesel) get higher BSFC when the throttle is full open.
- Less Noise Vibration and Harshness in vehicles of similar design.
There are downsides as well.
- Higher powertrain costs.
- Single speed transmissions are seldom efficient at higher speeds.
- Limited areas with very high electric rates cost more per mile than gasoline in some area.
- Higher weight for similar sized vehicles.
- Vastly better remote refueling infrastructure.
- Slower remote refueling infrastructure.
- Less absolute range before refueling on similar designs.
- Cold and Hot weather negatively affects battery storage ability.
- Variety of models is still very poor for EVs compared to ICE variety.
- Fewer high end optional equipment choices, such as massage seats and rear seat entertainment and all wheel steering.
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In 2010 General Motors engineers made such a list themselves.
They decided it was worthwhile to address the downsides, so they released an Extended Range Electric Vehicle (EREV). These are vehicles that run purely on electricity until the traction battery is depleted, then a smaller gas engine acts as a generator.
The higher powertrain costs were somewhat offset by the smaller battery required (16 to 18.4 kWh depending on model year). Batteries were very expensive in 2010.
Using a planetary gear system and clutches with 2 electric motors, they ended up with a variable ratio EV design.
You can choose to run the car on electricity-only or use gasoline depending on price of fuel.
Weight was still a problem at first, but for 7.5 second 0-60 mph cars, the new weight of 3,500lb is not too far out of line.
Gasoline remote refueling still allows the car to operate as an efficient (>40mpg) hybrid if electric cost are too high.
Fast gas refueling when needed.
Hot and Cold extremes are handled well by the supplemental gas engine if required.
High density altitudes and partial throttle losses are attenuated by the assistance of the gas engine which operates at open throttle normally since it's a generator.
EREV tech can be put into anything from construction equipment to bicycles.
Cadillac released an EREV CT6 as a medium luxury car as have other companies. Night vision, rear dual HDTV, luxury materials, 360 view, privacy curtains, massage seats, etc.
But pragmatism is not always a big issue with car buyers, especially in the over $30,000 arena. EREVs are not big sellers.
Note the Prius Prime is only 'sort of' an EREV. It makes limited power in EV mode (0-60mph in 12.2 seconds), and when you floor it, unlike the Volt, the gas engine runs. Plus it has limited pure EV range.
They decided it was worthwhile to address the downsides, so they released an Extended Range Electric Vehicle (EREV). These are vehicles that run purely on electricity until the traction battery is depleted, then a smaller gas engine acts as a generator.
The higher powertrain costs were somewhat offset by the smaller battery required (16 to 18.4 kWh depending on model year). Batteries were very expensive in 2010.
Using a planetary gear system and clutches with 2 electric motors, they ended up with a variable ratio EV design.
You can choose to run the car on electricity-only or use gasoline depending on price of fuel.
Weight was still a problem at first, but for 7.5 second 0-60 mph cars, the new weight of 3,500lb is not too far out of line.
Gasoline remote refueling still allows the car to operate as an efficient (>40mpg) hybrid if electric cost are too high.
Fast gas refueling when needed.
Hot and Cold extremes are handled well by the supplemental gas engine if required.
High density altitudes and partial throttle losses are attenuated by the assistance of the gas engine which operates at open throttle normally since it's a generator.
EREV tech can be put into anything from construction equipment to bicycles.
Cadillac released an EREV CT6 as a medium luxury car as have other companies. Night vision, rear dual HDTV, luxury materials, 360 view, privacy curtains, massage seats, etc.
But pragmatism is not always a big issue with car buyers, especially in the over $30,000 arena. EREVs are not big sellers.
Note the Prius Prime is only 'sort of' an EREV. It makes limited power in EV mode (0-60mph in 12.2 seconds), and when you floor it, unlike the Volt, the gas engine runs. Plus it has limited pure EV range.
Good list of pros and cons! I would add one more con: EVs are currently less reliable than ICEVs - at least that's been my experience, and I know I'm not alone. I expect that as EV models mature this will change, and EVs will become as reliable as ICEVs, and probably more. But until that happens, visits to the shop are still an impediment to EVs being 'easier to own'.
I also agree with your limitation of EV superiority to the 'luxury' market. EVs are great if you can afford them, but for the vast majority of the market those 'higher drivetrain costs' are prohibitive.
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Speaking of reliability... my S was 'in the shop' AT LEAST 4-6x a year. The 9 year old Tahoe I'm in now... hasn't had an issue in YEARS. it's almost boringly reliable. Tesla spent so much time reinventing the wheel stupid stuff would fail constantly. I'm looking at the stupid door handles! I HATE that jag copied them. Seriously. the door handles on my Tahoe are JUST FINE. they've never failed to door handle. I must have had at least 12 if not 16 door handles replaced under warranty. At 1k each or so.
Twelve to 16 replacement door handles? That's pretty hilarious.
My problems were more software and electric drivetrain parts, but equally annoying. Meanwhile, my Lexus LS400 has needed only minimal service in the 20 years I've owned it. And it still has the original door handles!
:smile2:
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Jaguar isn't exactly known for reliability, but the issues I see in long term reviews are all pretty small, of the "I can wait for the next service until i have this dealt with" type. I have a new Ram truck that took a week at the dealer to get the stereo connection to the internet working. There are also two recalls that don't really affect my life. Nothing like what a lot of Tesla owners are going through. Then again, I'm strongly thinking of getting a Model 3 with performance uncorked. Even if the doors aren't aligned or the trunk release is wonky, it'll be a fast, fun car.
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I wonder how many that actually is?
The ones that are bad are publicised in social media ... the ones that work fine are unlikely to be.
"my S was 'in the shop' AT LEAST 4-6x a year."
Mine's been in once, in 2-and-a-bit years (other than for service which I only bother with every 30,000 miles or so). That was a fault on the headlight that caused it to flicker and was sufficiently annoying for oncoming traffic that I decided to get it sorted rather than leave it for the next service ... perhaps that's a problem with a 30,000 mile service interval, likely that something might need attention in that period, whereas with a shorter period more likely the service mechanic spots and fixes it then ...
Rattles are another problem, probably go unheard in a nosier ICE car, but every squeak is an annoyance in an EV
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Mine was a March 2013 car, compared to my wife's Model 3. Mine was in the shop more in a month than hers has been in 10,000 miles.
Mine was like the 500th off the line or something stupid early...
I am NOT happy Jag copied the tesla door handles. Between them failing on my S, and Jag's "reliability"... it's not a good combo. Maybe the ones from the F-Pace will fit it? or F type? whatever the SUV one is.
Mine was like the 500th off the line or something stupid early...
I am NOT happy Jag copied the tesla door handles. Between them failing on my S, and Jag's "reliability"... it's not a good combo. Maybe the ones from the F-Pace will fit it? or F type? whatever the SUV one is.
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Yeah, the internet is a scary place. However, the Tesla horror stories roll out regularly on multiple forums. The somewhat early P100D I had for an overnight test drive had multiple problems. It's been a while, so I don't remember them all, but wheel alignment and a frunk that refused to close were two of maybe five-plus problems. The self-presenting doors were crap. I remember that. Autopilot 1 was garbage, and I hear 2 isn't much better.
As for squeaks, luxury ICE cars are very quiet at idle and freeway speeds. As Car and Driver wrote of the Model 3:
"Although the Model 3 is a bit less involving than the best sports sedans on these roads, it lacks the refined isolation of its similarly priced rivals. The stout structure stifles harsh impacts, but you do hear what’s going on below as the tires persistently thwack and thrum over pavement imperfections. Our sound meter measured 69 decibels at 70 mph, louder than an A4. There were also some subtle yet annoying rattles and creaks in our test car, which had less than 2500 miles on the odometer. The high recommended tire pressure of 45 psi seems partially to blame for this racket, but letting some air out would result in a decrease in efficiency and driving range."
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we dropped the tires by 5-8 PSI each in my wife's 3 and it saved my back. the ride was SO freaking bouncy I couldn't stand it! Now it feels like a much more comfy car.
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Sure, even I, what most people would consider a Fan, am vocal about Tesla's failings ... but I read horror stories about even the most prestigious marques on the internet ... and probably that Air is bad for me if I google hard enough?
(I did and, yeah, lots of hits - mostly around "bad air quality" )I'm not convinced that the Tesla numbers are "bad", but I certainly would never buy an early one, nor put my money down for two years to get "up the line" ...
I've got trouble with "early" in this context. I absolutely agree its no excuse, and I don't remember other Marques in the last few decades rolling out cars that were rubbish until they had produced 100,000 of them ... but it seems that later Tesla ones are better.
I also see articles from respectable sources that say the faults are harder to find, in the flesh, than the critics imply. They can't both be right of course ... e.g.:
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/07/28/tesla-model-3-review-the-things-you-havent-read/
snippet below
I also think that its likely that Jag will do a good job from Day One . but ... the whole EV thing is new to them, so its still brave to be early IMHO.
"Autopilot 1 was garbage"
Was garbage, or is garbage? Its a very sweeping-statement ... and couldn't be further from the truth in current context. I have AP1, i use it pretty much 100% of the time when I'm on the highway (I've had the car over two years, it does 27,000 miles a year, high percentage of them are highway). AP1 has never given me a scary moment, although I do take over when i want to change lanes and it takes more than a second or so thinking about it (because me signalling and not moving is likely to confuse other drivers). I occasionally take over when I think "its going to be tight", but because I take over I have no idea if it would be tight, or not
... and sometimes AP1 jumps on the brakes for no obvious reason (usually approaching a truck in inside lane, so probably "too narrow" but to me it looks the same as other similar situations). I doubt that happens even once every 1,000 miles. AP1 also works just fine on non-highway, if road markings are good, but I tend to drive manually on those roads (because I will want to overtake when i can, and cornering speeds are then my-choice not AP, and I'm mostly wanting to press on if there is no traffic on back roads - but if I encouter bumper-to-bumper, highway or in town, I definitely use AP for that.).From what I read it seems that auto-steer etc. on other marques is not as good - only working on some roads (e.g. only if mapped), not working on non-highway, requiring hands-on-wheel / eyes-on-road 100% of the time (i don't have a problem with that until we have perfect AP, and I do drive with hand-on-wheel at all times, but I do adjust things time-to-time and may well be hands-off-wheel or eyes-off-road for a short period)
I've not been in a Model-3 (none here in UK until next year ...) but everyone who travels in my Model-S remarks how quiet it is. Majority of my mates afford "posh cars" so apart from the ones who buy based on the size/number of the exhaust! they are used to quiet luxury brands.
I had a stone-chip cracked windscreen replaced by the local Quick-Fit-Whatever company that the insurance company used. Within a couple of days I had squeaks and rattles in the headlining, and took it back to Tesla and had them fix it - assuming (quite possibly wrongly) that the Quick-Fix guys were not going to be ale to solve the problem reliably.
From article linked above:
"My Model 3 was built and delivered in April 2018. Apparently, this date was late enough into the production process to allow Tesla to get over any alleged quality issues. As a recent review noted, Tesla explains the panel gap issues as being the result of metal stamping irregularities. The stampings of the deep-draft aluminum body panels were “moving” after they were stamped, explained a production engineer. This isn’t unusual for an aluminum body project, except that these adjustments had to be made under the glare of investors and speculators. Either Tesla fixed the panel gap issue by the time I purchased it, or Tesla knew I was going to publish a review of my car at a later date. (Just anticipating the usual stock shorts’ claims.)
Any Model 3s I have seen have very straight, uniform panel gaps. The quality of my Model 3 has been excellent, except for the driver’s side “A” pillar, which has an interior cover that bows out slightly. I still need to get that fixed. I don’t doubt that Tesla, like every automaker, builds a few lemons, so your experience can certainly vary."
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Don't get me wrong. I'm no Tesla hater. There's a guy working on my Powerwalls right now. Some connection issue. I just haven't been able to bring myself to buy one of their cars yet, despite the obvious and powerful reasons to get their cars. Meanwhile, buying a Jaguar was much easier, despite the clear negatives. The panel gap issue appears to still be there on the X and 3, at least according to a steady stream of complaints on TMC. The build quality issues with malfunctions, paint problems, and so on also seem to be there. Knowing how relatively few cars Tesla delivers, even recently, compared to other marques, either the shorts have a well-financed campaign despite having lost lots of money over the past few years, or there are real issues still.
As for Autopilot, it wasn't seeing cars quickly, or all the cars. Then the self-parking feature failed to work multiple times, and when it did, the parking job was poor. I didn't explore much after that. I was too disappointed.
And despite all this, I'm on the verge of ordering a P3D. No autopilot, though.
As for Autopilot, it wasn't seeing cars quickly, or all the cars. Then the self-parking feature failed to work multiple times, and when it did, the parking job was poor. I didn't explore much after that. I was too disappointed.
And despite all this, I'm on the verge of ordering a P3D. No autopilot, though.
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Fair enough. Not sure its a good idea to launch and then debug (and have shoddy QA such that previous bugs, now fixed, come back in future releases) and so on ... but 'tis the Tesla way (and for plenty of other software vendor too - chuck it out there and fix whatever breaks). I build software, and as I have often said on the forums, there is blood on the carpet here if a bug gets through QA and out into the real world. And we are a tiny company, so no excuse for anyone with big resources. Marketing has taken control of far too many IT projects, and their skill-set is pixel-perfection, not bug-free delivery, and they have no idea about QA of software (we've retreated from all the markets, such as eCommerce, where marketing has taken over from IT)
But all that you mention has been fixed for as long as I can remember in AP1, probably for relative much shorter period in AP2, but there is stuff in AP2 which is definitely ahead of AP1 (but, for example and AFAIK, AP2 still cannot read speed signs which AP1 has always been able to do).
No doubt depends on the routes that you drive, but I wouldn't be without it. I arrive far more relaxed and far less tired than "manual driving of old", and I have always loved driving and never considered it a chore - nor have I considered it inherently tiring ... that was until I got AP and made the comparison. And that's on previous cars that had TACC already, so all I was doing was holding the steering wheel and adjusting it now-and-then, and now I'm holding the steering-wheel and am prepared to adjust it if necessary.
Wouldn't have believed that would be less tiring, despite Tesla AP owners telling me ... until I owned one.
30 months and ca30k miles in a bmw i3REX and reliability has not been an issue for me. The limited driving range has created some electric issues, but REX has never failed the limited times I have needed it (Rexcued). I have enjoyed the experience thus far, but looking forward to an Ipace by YEnd.
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