[sciencegeek]

In Los Angeles on Tuesday, Electrify America CEO Giovanni Palazzo gave details of the company’s progress, promising that 500 charging locations – 160 of them in California – will be built by June of next year. EA’s goal is 2,000 stations nationwide by the end of 2019.

That's a quote from this article
https://www.detroitnews.com/story/business/autos/mobility/2018/11/28/audi-takes-aim-tesla-electrify-america-charging-network/2123020002/

This is great news for us, if true. Even if that timeline slips by 6 months it's an amazing upgrade to what's currently available in fast charging.

 

[WattAJag]

I can understand "nothing" in Montana/North Dakota ... But, they have a giant gap also all the way across Northern AZ to Amarillo, TX. I-80 is a major E-W artery, and it's not on their "planned soon" list. It's currently very hard to get in/out of Phoenix with an EV. But, there are TONS of them HERE! Because the climate is good for them most of the year.

 

[sciencegeek]

Part of the reason this caught my eye was that the web site shows a really sparse "coming soon" grid. Given the CEO's comment I'm inclined to believe that the web site is out of date and you may well end up with something in Montana/North Dakota, and certainly along I-80, sooner than you think

 

[Pseudonym]

Part of the reason this caught my eye was that the web site shows a really sparse "coming soon" grid. Given the CEO's comment I'm inclined to believe that the web site is out of date and you may well end up with something in Montana/North Dakota, and certainly along I-80, sooner than you think

Here is their intial approximate plan of stations which they've since removed and only currently show stations actually under construction, but will give you a good idea of what the full network for Phase I will look like. And then they immediately start Phase II in july of 2019 with an equal allotment of money(so theoretically they could double the national network size). All of the metros in orange are receiving priority and will have loads more additional non-highway, but still 150kW+ stations that aren't included in the highway network numbers. I think I heard just in the SF Bay area alone they'll have 58 separate stations by the end of Q2 2019.

 

[sciencegeek]

Yeah that map is old ... not consistent with 160 in Cali and 500 nationwide by end of Q2 2019

 

[I-PaceDave]

stations which they've since removed and only currently show stations actually under construction, but will give you a good idea of what the full network for Phase I will look like. And then they immediately start Phase II in july of 2019 with an equal allotment of money(so theoretically they could double the national network size). All of the metros in orange are receiving priority and will have loads more additional non-highway, but still 150kW+ stations that aren't included in the highway network numbers. I think I heard just in the SF Bay area alone they'll have 58 separate stations by the end of Q2 2019.

This map shows the "Highway" locations as part of Cycle 1, there are also "Community" locations in Cycle 1 (in 17 Metro Areas) that have DC fast chargers, although at lower power 50kW-150kW The first couple "community" stations have opened in CA, and a few are under construction here in WA state, some of them are shown on Plug-Share, and some are not. Some locations are still in land contract negotiations, so they are not shown on maps, for example here in WA state, I know there are Highway locations in Bellingham, Marysville, Longview, Ritzville, and Yakima, that are still in process. Talking to the local rep for Electrify America, WA-ORE-ID will have DC fast chargers in 43 locations by June 2019, but construction will slow a bit now over the holidays as malls, and Walmart do not want construction projects in their parking lots during the holiday shopping time.

 

[Pseudonym]

This map shows the "Highway" locations as part of Cycle 1, there are also "Community" locations in Cycle 1 (in 17 Metro Areas) that have DC fast chargers, although at lower power 50kW-150kW The first couple "community" stations have opened in CA, and a few are under construction here in WA state, some of them are shown on Plug-Share, and some are not. Some locations are still in land contract negotiations, so they are not shown on maps, for example here in WA state, I know there are Highway locations in Bellingham, Marysville, Longview, Ritzville, and Yakima, that are still in process. Talking to the local rep for Electrify America, WA-ORE-ID will have DC fast chargers in 43 locations by June 2019, but construction will slow a bit now over the holidays as malls, and Walmart do not want construction projects in their parking lots during the holiday shopping time.

At least in California, in their Q3 update to CARB, they said they decided to mostly eschew the 50 kW stations for their DC fast charging community chargers and make the vast majority 150kW.

Now if only Jaguar would actually enable 100kW charging and beyond since the 14.2 update that was supposed to provide 100kW charging seems to have changed nothing.

 

[McRat]

At least in California, in their Q3 update to CARB, they said they decided to mostly eschew the 50 kW stations for their DC fast charging community chargers and make the vast majority 150kW.

Now if only Jaguar would actually enable 100kW charging and beyond since the 14.2 update that was supposed to provide 100kW charging seems to have changed nothing.

The problem in California is our Demand Metering adoption approved by CPUC (Jerry's Kids) makes it crazy to install 150 kW chargers.
The cost per kWh dispensed is 3x more than 50 kW. ie - If putting 50kWh into a car costs $10 on a 50kW charger, that same 50kWh costs $30 when dispensed from a 150kW charger. Tesla wasn't throttling those SCs for nothing. They were in a cash crunch. The slower you pump the juice, the cheaper it is when Demand Metering is allowed. The crazy thing is, it's a scam in heavily populated areas. Grid load smooths out when the customer count climbs. ie - To fill 10,000 EVs a day with 50 kWh of juice does not cost more just because each car spends less time at the pump. Charging at higher speeds does NOT increase the number of EVs who are charging, it just changes the duration spent charging. The Demand Metering was originally aimed at large businesses to make it more profitable to upgrade their equipment than to take the abusive electrical costs. But it will kill EV charging progress, and perhaps EVs themselves as they migrate Demand Metering to all customers. No businesses will put in an EV charger if the power costs are abusive.

To put this gasoline terms:

California and some other states are billing fuel based on how quickly the pump runs. If a gas pump fills your tank in 6 minutes, you pay $4/gallon. If a gas pump fills your tank in 2 minutes, you pay $12 a gallon.

Obviously nobody would tolerate that. But EV owners really don't have a voice in the matter. Our Government is either inept or they truly want to kill off EV adoption in California.

 

[phil]

Our Government is either inept or they truly want to kill off EV adoption in California.

I think we all know the answer to that one!

 

[WattAJag]

While I have no doubt McRat knows what he's talking about, something doesn't make sense to me. I thought that the DC Fast Chargers work by the stations having giant batteries that keep charging at a fairly steady rate of the grid all day and that you hook your car to so that they try to level/dump a lot of power into your battery rapidly like filling a bucket from a large cistern.

Am I wrong in that understanding?

If not, then the rate that the stations dump into your car has no relation to the rate their pulling from the grid.

 

[McRat]

While I have no doubt McRat knows what he's talking about, something doesn't make sense to me. I thought that the DC Fast Chargers work by the stations having giant batteries that keep charging at a fairly steady rate of the grid all day and that you hook your car to so that they try to level/dump a lot of power into your battery rapidly like filling a bucket from a large cistern.

Am I wrong in that understanding?

If not, then the rate that the stations dump into your car has no relation to the rate their pulling from the grid.

Few if any storage-based DCFCs exist. Capital costs would be too high. It is an excellent idea, especially in remote areas with solar panels.
They commonly use AC high voltage power that is kicked down to 480vac 3ph before at the dispensing AC/DC inverter. The inverter can then create any voltage the car requires as DC which directly charges the battery. It is similar electrically to a solid state 12v battery charge on a grand scale, but can pump at 500vac or more.

 

[I-PaceDave]

At least in California, in their Q3 update to CARB, they said they decided to mostly eschew the 50 kW stations for their DC fast charging community chargers and make the vast majority 150kW.

Now if only Jaguar would actually enable 100kW charging and beyond since the 14.2 update that was supposed to provide 100kW charging seems to have changed nothing.

Correct, I heard the same thing, in WA state all of the community DC charging will be 150 kW CCS, and 50kW Chademo

Getting charged $$ for causing a surge on the grid is a real thing even here in WA. I used to work in a high-rise building, and we had to bring our chillers online in a certain pattern every morning to keep from causing voltage drop and a surge. Newer buildings have automated systems for this, but we were old school in our building built in the early 80's. Most DC car chargers start slow and gently, and then ramp up the load on the grid over a minute or more, so I would assume even the 350 kW chargers do not cause too much wave on the grid.

Jaguar needs to up their charging rates, especially because their car is so thirsty. On a road trip its going to come down to charging rate making the trip doable or not. Audi Exec's stated at the LA auto show earlier this week, that even in their testing they are seeing over 150 kW charging rates on the E-Tron Quattro up to 70% SOC, which if true, is game changing on a road trip. Looking forward to real world verification of this soon, as Audi should begin deliveries by the end of the year in Europe.

 

[I-PaceDave]

I can understand "nothing" in Montana/North Dakota ... But, they have a giant gap also all the way across Northern AZ to Amarillo, TX. I-80 is a major E-W artery, and it's not on their "planned soon" list. It's currently very hard to get in/out of Phoenix with an EV. But, there are TONS of them HERE! Because the climate is good for them most of the year.

Do not forget that the map showing EA charging stations is only the Cycle 1 investment, there will be Cycle 2 (equal $$ investment) starting in late 2019, that will expand into more rural areas, and open more cross country routes including I-90 in MT. I was a contributor on the Cycle 2 plans, and I think it fills in a lot of the holes, where EV's go in numbers large enough to support these expensive DC chargers. As more people invest into EA or other charging systems the grid will grow, but it takes time, and costs money.

EA is not working on Cycle 3 or 4 plans yet, the thought being by late 2020 there may be a technological shift in batteries, and 350 kW might no longer be considered "Fast" charging, at which time, EA will invest the second half of their money into even more advanced fast charging systems.

 

[phil]

While I have no doubt McRat knows what he's talking about, something doesn't make sense to me. I thought that the DC Fast Chargers work by the stations having giant batteries that keep charging at a fairly steady rate of the grid all day and that you hook your car to so that they try to level/dump a lot of power into your battery rapidly like filling a bucket from a large cistern.

Am I wrong in that understanding?

If not, then the rate that the stations dump into your car has no relation to the rate their pulling from the grid.

I believe you are wrong. Few, if any, charging stations currently work that way.

Tesla, among others, has talked about such an approach. Then again, they talk about a lot of things that never happen. Solar-powered charging stations, for example.

 

[Time2Roll]

That is the reason for the demand charge. Utility installs 150 kW of transformers, transmission lines, switch equipment etc to just charge one car a day. Can't charge just 15 cents a kWh and make money like that so in comes the Demand Charge based on peak usage during 15 minute intervals. Most large businesses (at least in California) pay a demand charge for the same reason.

I believe few if any batteries have been deployed to smooth off the demand but I think this will be coming... especially as these sites are expanded to charge multiple vehicles and reduce or eliminate even larger utility connection. Many Tesla Supercharging stations do have solar panels but I assume that is more of a grid-tie system where net metering is favorable.

 

[McRat]

That is the reason for the demand charge. Utility installs 150 kW of transformers, transmission lines, switch equipment etc to just charge one car a day. Can't charge just 15 cents a kWh and make money like that so in comes the Demand Charge based on peak usage during 15 minute intervals. Most large businesses (at least in California) pay a demand charge for the same reason.

I believe few if any batteries have been deployed to smooth off the demand but I think this will be coming... especially as these sites are expanded to charge multiple vehicles and reduce or eliminate even larger utility connection. Many Tesla Supercharging stations do have solar panels but I assume that is more of a grid-tie system where net metering is favorable.

But the issue is:

If there are 10,000 customers who can in theory draw 100 MW if all peak at once, it never happens. Even A/C cycles, big units are variable speed, compressors go on and off (even centrifugal ones do not pull peak rate at 100% duty cycle).
Grid voltage fluctuates as various customers hit peak draw, and fall. Because there are so many customers, statistical math smooths out the draw.
We go from 271 to 285vac per line (480vac) at the meter because of what our neighbors draw. So even when I'm pushing [email protected] out of my solar, it has no effect on the actual grid voltage. Or if I draw 20kW from the grid, same thing.

And Demand Tariffs are based on the highest kW observed for 15m for the entire month. Hence if you have a 150kW CCS station, it incurs the same Demand Fee whether it runs all month non-stop, or is only used for 15 min one day a month. It's going to kill DCFCs in less populated areas, or make them run at 50kW to save costs.

 

[Time2Roll]

Not so much a grid thing in my example but a dedicated branch circuit needs to be designed for 150 kW and the retail bill could be just 100 kWh for the month or $15.
Utility does not want to install $100,000+ equipment to feed the L3 station and get $15 a month.

Yes it does present a pricing difficulty for EV charging due to the initial low volume. When cars are lined up 18 hours a day to charge it will be a different picture.