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Discussion Starter #1
I used an Electrify America charger yesterday for the first time....and possibly the last.

I had/have two separate issues with the system - and yes I have read previous posts on them..

Issue 1 was that despite being at 40% SOC the charger only ever pushed out a max of 39.33KW. I hadn't used them before so didn't really know if this was good or bad, and was trying to eat lunch and entertain my son so wasn't entirely concentrating. However that isn't really my issue. - Next time I'll call them during the session, as that is what i am supposed to do.

Issue 2 was being charged at the >75KW rate.

Now I know that the way they work is that they 'establish' the max value for the car (at that time) and then charge you for that for the whole session. I kind of get that and can even see why they do this, although it is only a matter of time before they get forced to fix that nonsense.

My issue is that the Vehicle charging Receipt I received from them clearly states the maximum charge rate of 39.33KW.
So I rang them to query this, given the >75KW rate I was charged.

I was 'told' that the session information stated that the vehicle communicated that it could do 117KW and so that was the tariff I was placed in. I asked if they could send me some documentation to back that up? I was told No, sorry that is 'proprietary' information. I then pointed out their own receipt says the max was 39.33KW and that 117KW is not mentioned anywhere on the receipt. So either they need to justify, in documentation, their charge, or charge me based on the documentation they have already sent me. Otherwise it is basically fraud. Oh and since they put it in email, it is also wire fraud.

i had another call, with a supervisor, and just kept hammering the point that 'I'm looking at the receipt you gave me and it doesn't add up' - So either change the receipt or change the charge. Anything else is ...fraudulent.

I'm now awaiting another call back as they re going to escalate it...again.

I'm not a lawyer. But this strikes me as a pretty clear case of fraudulent behavior. If you are going to charge in this manor, and you can charge however you like, then you do at a minimum, have to document that charge properly.

I will let you guys know what happens next. I'm not expecting anything other than rebuttal, and never using them again until they change their charging policy.

p.s. Does anyone on this alias know anyone at Electrify America? I can't believe this is what they want their customers to go through. It reminds me of the way cell phone plans used to be sold, with penalties for using them more. I'm sure it will all change in time and I don't really do long distances in the car, but I would quite like to help Electrify America have a better product if I could. It is odd that their website has no email address on it, just a phone number...
 

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Brad, best of luck with this and I agree, what they've documented and what they're charging you, are two different things. Absurd. They could say the car 'communicated' anything they want and you have no way of refuting that.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Thanks Ken. At the very least I would like them to actually have numbers on a receipt that add up :)
 

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I depend on EA for my long distance travel, and have been on the phone with them many times for various issues (usually related to broken equipment). Their cost structure is absurd and everyone knows it, but I've had zero luck with them comping me some credit or free minutes of charging, even in the most egregious charging sessions. Like you, I've rolled in to chargers being flat out of power, under ideal weather circumstances, with no one else charging, and maxed out at 44. Of course, I was charged at the tier 2 price. It is embarrassing to get to family functions and discuss my EV and fast charging, and admit that my relative's giant SUV's are a more economical road car than my Jaguar. The 'theoretical' max rate is absurd, and at best to achieved for only a few minutes before tapering down. The obvious solution is to allow a user to select a maximum tier. I read a while back that because of changing CA laws, EA is going to gradually convert to a power used model vs. a minutes model. Who knows what their rate will be, but it is hard to believe it will be worse than the current situation. On the plus side, the reps at EA are always very pleasant.
 

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Good for you to make a stink brad. I also find it unpalatable. Problem is, I don't charge with them often enough and the overall cost is not high enough for me to really care and spend the time. They rely on the indifference of people like me. :cautious:
 

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Discussion Starter #6
I depend on EA for my long distance travel, and have been on the phone with them many times for various issues (usually related to broken equipment). Their cost structure is absurd and everyone knows it, but I've had zero luck with them comping me some credit or free minutes of charging, even in the most egregious charging sessions. Like you, I've rolled in to chargers being flat out of power, under ideal weather circumstances, with no one else charging, and maxed out at 44. Of course, I was charged at the tier 2 price. It is embarrassing to get to family functions and discuss my EV and fast charging, and admit that my relative's giant SUV's are a more economical road car than my Jaguar. The 'theoretical' max rate is absurd, and at best to achieved for only a few minutes before tapering down. The obvious solution is to allow a user to select a maximum tier. I read a while back that because of changing CA laws, EA is going to gradually convert to a power used model vs. a minutes model. Who knows what their rate will be, but it is hard to believe it will be worse than the current situation. On the plus side, the reps at EA are always very pleasant.
I would hate to HAVE to use them. At this point I just want to make myself a pain in the arse (I'm a Brit so arse not ass) to them. I could accept their charging IF they then gave me a receipt to back up their claim. At this point they are making a claim which they refuse to provide any evidence for. That is basically the definition of fraud. Knowing the litigious nature of my adopted country I am pretty sure there is a lawyer out there willing to take this on... but at this stage it is just about letting them dig their own hole and then seeing where that goes. As I said, not expecting anything but I do like a challenge. Given VW own this outfit my next course of action is an email to the Board of VW asking " Given your track record with Dieselgate, are you trying to replicate that with Electrify America?" - I suspect that might light a few fires...
 

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On my latest long distance trip, one 350kW EA charger would not charge > 28kW. After waiting 15 minutes to see if it would go higher, I stopped it and moved to a 150kW charger. The charge started at 102kW rate per the second charger display. I concluded that either (1) battery was too hot to start at a high rate and caused it to never go higher, (2) first charger was faulty, (3) first charger affected by the high ambient temps, (4) car affected by high ambient temps, (5) charger would not allow it go higher than the initial rate regardless of any changed condition, or (6) something else beyond my control. That 15 minutes could have allowed the battery to cool off enough to start the second charge at the maximum rate. The cooling fan went into its highest speed during the second charging session, whereas it was at a very slow speed during the first session.

I suggest trying a different charger (if available) when this happens, or maybe just a stop and restart of charging. This will cost additional $1 fee if you're not on the Plus plan. $1 is worth it for a shorter charging session.

I do agree that charging for a high kW rate for the duration is not the best customer experience.
 

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Definitely dispute all the charges with your credit card.
The onus would be on AE to show everything
 

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On my latest long distance trip, one 350kW EA charger would not charge > 28kW. After waiting 15 minutes to see if it would go higher, I stopped it and moved to a 150kW charger. The charge started at 102kW rate per the second charger display. I concluded that either (1) battery was too hot to start at a high rate and caused it to never go higher, (2) first charger was faulty, (3) first charger affected by the high ambient temps, (4) car affected by high ambient temps, (5) charger would not allow it go higher than the initial rate regardless of any changed condition, or (6) something else beyond my control. That 15 minutes could have allowed the battery to cool off enough to start the second charge at the maximum rate. The cooling fan went into its highest speed during the second charging session, whereas it was at a very slow speed during the first session.

I suggest trying a different charger (if available) when this happens, or maybe just a stop and restart of charging. This will cost additional $1 fee if you're not on the Plus plan. $1 is worth it for a shorter charging session.

I do agree that charging for a high kW rate for the duration is not the best customer experience.
You forgot the alignment of the planets. ;)
 

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While I concur that EA's pricing scheme is unfair, to assert that they have committed fraud is a leap too far. They show you the pricing tier the car goes into and they fully and openly admit that this tier assignment has absolutely nothing to do with the actual charge rate during the session. It's unfair, but it's not deceptive or fraudulent. EA even acknowledges that this tier assignment is unfair and has made agreements with large manufacturers like Kia for their e-Niro model which has a peak charge rate of 77 kW which was placing their vehicles in the 75-125kW tier. EA made up a 35 cents per minute "special" tier for that vehicle because it knows this pricing model is unfair.

I'd also like to point out that EA is kind of in a bind due to antiquated laws that only allow power companies to sell electricity by the actual amount of energy delivered (kWh). EA also has the largest network of non-Tesla high powered chargers in the US. It doesn't make sense for EA to bill a flat per minute rate to deliver 270 kW to a Porche Taycan or 46 kW to a Leaf. There's a huge difference between those two things. Their goofy pricing scheme attempts to charge higher power sessions differently from lower power sessions while not directly selling kWh.

If you really want to make positive change, get in the ear of your congressional representatives at the federal level to allow charge station operators in the US to sell energy in kWh. A national standard is really the only way to get to fair pricing schemes for EV charging companies that operate in all 50 states.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
While I concur that EA's pricing scheme is unfair, to assert that they have committed fraud is a leap too far. They show you the pricing tier the car goes into and they fully and openly admit that this tier assignment has absolutely nothing to do with the actual charge rate during the session. It's unfair, but it's not deceptive or fraudulent. EA even acknowledges that this tier assignment is unfair and has made agreements with large manufacturers like Kia for their e-Niro model which has a peak charge rate of 77 kW which was placing their vehicles in the 75-125kW tier. EA made up a 35 cents per minute "special" tier for that vehicle because it knows this pricing model is unfair.

I'd also like to point out that EA is kind of in a bind due to antiquated laws that only allow power companies to sell electricity by the actual amount of energy delivered (kWh). EA also has the largest network of non-Tesla high powered chargers in the US. It doesn't make sense for EA to bill a flat per minute rate to deliver 270 kW to a Porche Taycan or 46 kW to a Leaf. There's a huge difference between those two things. Their goofy pricing scheme attempts to charge higher power sessions differently from lower power sessions while not directly selling kWh.

If you really want to make positive change, get in the ear of your congressional representatives at the federal level to allow charge station operators in the US to sell energy in kWh. A national standard is really the only way to get to fair pricing schemes for EV charging companies that operate in all 50 states.
Juice, I will mail my congressional and senatorial reps about this and the Governor when EA give me a reason to do that. At this point they haven't said it is anyone else's issue. I do think it is fraudulent behavior when you make a claim that you are not willing to back up with documentation. As I mentioned I can understand their situation, and if my receipt had a line that said the car indicated it could charge at 117KW so this is your charging band then that would at least be documentation. It would also then lead to the next question of - So you placed me that charging band and then actually delivered on 39.33KW... and it can't be the car, because the car just said it could take 117KW.. so it must be EA!?

Again whilst I recognize that this can be difficult we are not talking about some tiny company trying to do this. This is VW, the worlds largest Vehicle manufacturer. They are doing everything to promote the use of EVs and are spending $25Bn (billion) in the coming decade on EVs. They REALLY want EV owners to have a good experience, but they are currently just pissing people off. They are not customer focused and are just prevaricating and stalling when you call them on their lack of documentation. "Trust me your car said it could do X" and so that is the charging band, but I won't provide any evidence to back that up is 'making shit up' - or Fraud as it is known in legal circles.

If I was EA and anyone had any issue with the current service I would just comp them for now. The EV thing is here for the next 25 years. Accelerating the use will accelerate the ROI on that $25Bn investment. Anything else is just shooting yourself in the foot, $20 at a time...
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Just an update to say that EA rang today to say that they are refunding my entire charge for the session. They said that this was due to the low charge level and didn't comment on the pricing tier.... Still more than i expected at this point.
 

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While I concur that EA's pricing scheme is unfair, to assert that they have committed fraud is a leap too far. They show you the pricing tier the car goes into and they fully and openly admit that this tier assignment has absolutely nothing to do with the actual charge rate during the session. It's unfair, but it's not deceptive or fraudulent. EA even acknowledges that this tier assignment is unfair and has made agreements with large manufacturers like Kia for their e-Niro model which has a peak charge rate of 77 kW which was placing their vehicles in the 75-125kW tier. EA made up a 35 cents per minute "special" tier for that vehicle because it knows this pricing model is unfair.

I'd also like to point out that EA is kind of in a bind due to antiquated laws that only allow power companies to sell electricity by the actual amount of energy delivered (kWh). EA also has the largest network of non-Tesla high powered chargers in the US. It doesn't make sense for EA to bill a flat per minute rate to deliver 270 kW to a Porche Taycan or 46 kW to a Leaf. There's a huge difference between those two things. Their goofy pricing scheme attempts to charge higher power sessions differently from lower power sessions while not directly selling kWh.

If you really want to make positive change, get in the ear of your congressional representatives at the federal level to allow charge station operators in the US to sell energy in kWh. A national standard is really the only way to get to fair pricing schemes for EV charging companies that operate in all 50 states.
Sound advice here, Juice. If we unify, have a common message and focus on Appropriations Committee Members and Energy Committee Members, we might get this topic raised at a hearing. That will build a record and put the topic on the radar. Members will be at home and out regularly these next couple of months in the lead up to Election Day. Have a short, simple message ready, hand them a short note and request a call with their energy policy LA (Legislative Assistant).
 

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Just finishing a cross California road trip and had to use EA 4 or 5 times along the way. Same exact thing happened to me. Called them to complain. They called me back for more info, which I provided. Now waiting. Agree it’s got to be fraud. Just have a tier based on actual effective rate of delivered energy, not theoretical rate. As part of the road trip gettting ~60/70kwh even at that outrageous premium was beneficial vs EVGO’s ~40kwh rate... again just because time was of the essence. Would otherwise never use them. I hope CA law forces them out of their fraudulent practices (yes, I agree with the Brit that it’s nothing less than fraudulent).
 

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Where I live in Iowa, our local power company and Greenlots has installed new Level 3 chargers across the state. The price is currently free, and it works every time. I drive by EA chargers now, laugh, and hope to never use them again. It's sad that they've spent so much money on infrastructure to create a system that often doesn't work, and has a robbery based pricing scheme. I hope there is a class action lawsuit. EA almost has to try to be so bad.
 

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I live in BC, Canada,
Up here, it's called 'Electrify Canada' :) Same onerous pricing scheme, so I've never used them.

We have competing providers, including publicly supported BC Hydro (our primary electricity utility company) DCFC 50kw stations, many of which are free and others around 35c CDN/kwh; PetroCanada (gas station, like Chevron or Shell) has 350kw chargers for 27c/min and Fortis has some 50kw chargers at $18CDN/hr. There is ample DCFC charging along all/most major routes and more are being installed every month. Although I have occasionally had to wait a few minutes for a charging station to become available, that is the exception, not the rule. All-in-all a pretty good experience so far.

For my iPace, Electrify Canada would charge 77cCDN/min!!! I would only ever use them if nothing else was available...
 
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