[McRat]

While California is still giving $4500 out to anyone who buys a Hydrogen Car (the CARB director has a Toyota Mirai H2 car, they have reduced the EV rebates as such:
Income: If you report an income of $150k/yr single, or $300k/yr family, you are disqualified.
Number of rebates: You are now limited to 2 rebates for life.
Amount of rebate: It is now $2000 down from $2500.
Car Value: No EVs over $60k (many pickup trucks and SUVs cost more than that today, a 2020 base Corolla is just over $20k).

The Jaguar I-Pace, the Audi E-Tron, the Tesla Models S and X (perhaps a fully loaded Model 3, which is $66,990?) have all been taken off the list for 2020.

 

[Deutsch100]

WOW, that really sucks!! Not great for "encouraging" people to buy an EV!

 

[PS702]

I have benefited from this program 2x including the I-Pace.
I understand this program is to encourage EV adoption in CA, but I never understood why such higher income would even qualify for any rebate

It would be interesting to see how much the new limit of 2 would affect Tesla as so many buyers have purchased multiple ones

 

[dtgsrq]

At least some advantage for early adopters! Until the M3 came along, I suspect few Tesla buyers even cared about the rebates... "free money" but not a 'deciding factor' or even a motivation. Only a matter of time before the Fed takes it away, too.

 

[McRat]

I have benefited from this program 2x including the I-Pace.
I understand this program is to encourage EV adoption in CA, but I never understood why such higher income would even qualify for any rebate

It would be interesting to see how much the new limit of 2 would affect Tesla as so many buyers have purchased multiple ones

The idea of rebates is questionable. The execution is now horrible. BTW - 'reported income' is a game. A drug dealer with a private jet can get a $7000 California rebate on a H2 car.

But the fact remains, an EV costs more than a comparable ICE still.

Yes, you can get a $35k EV now with over 200 miles of range, HOWEVER, they lack the features found in the ICE cars at the same price point. A $60k pickup truck is equipped with better amenities than any Tesla ever produced.

(PS - Your private messages is turned off)

 

[epirali]

All these are valid points, but we do have a very Byzantine and not always sensible tax system in this country (and I don’t mean we are taxed too much, rather we do not have coherent tax policy designed to drive priorities in most areas). I agree that incentives for high income people (McRat I get your point but there has to be some “definition” of high income) doesn’t make sense. If I want a car and can afford i I am not making decision based on ‘economics.’ I Pace is a great example and as you pointed out EV vehicles cost more than comparable ICE. I simply don’t want ICE, I prefer the EV and I am willing to pay for it.

I also have benefited from Federal and state (not CA) credits. MD also eliminated credit for high income and capped at 2x per household. When it was to adopt a Leaf or a Bolt, which can have a mass audience and make a difference, it made sense. For Model S/X not really. Model 3, maybe. But honestly can we argue that a Porsche Taycan Turbo S is sold because someone gets tax credits?

Hydrogen is sill in infancy, so I am good with any and all credit to see if its viable alternative. BEVs are in a different phase.

 

[jsimon7777]

Our tax system is anti-progressive. Such subsidies for the rich, which means us, are a bit ridiculous. Trump lowered my taxes dramatically, but my employees all pay about the same. It's just stupid.

So good riddance to EV tax rebates for us. We don't need 'em!

 

[McRat]

The problem with H2, is cost, weight, refueling, and H2 is a petrofuel as sold today. It's cracked at refineries usually natural gas. It creates far more CO2 per mile than a Prius running on gas. H2 lost to the lithium storage solution. An H2 car is still an electric vehicle, it just stores power as H2 instead of a reusable battery.

Right now, the two largest US mfrs of EVs are pretty much out of Federal credits, so it only makes imports more attractive.

When a wealthy person buys an EV, it ends up trickling down to the used market. The credits reduce the used market prices.

The goal is getting the maximum number of EVs sold, but they cut down the two biggest sources in the US.

 

[PS702]

Our tax system is anti-progressive. Such subsidies for the rich, which means us, are a bit ridiculous. Trump lowered my taxes dramatically, but my employees all pay about the same. It's just stupid.

So good riddance to EV tax rebates for us. We don't need 'em!

I got in just before the cut off in CA of December 03. I wouldn't have gotten my Fiat 500e or the I-Pace of not for these CA EV rebates

Between the end of year discounts, Cyber Monday $3k off, low inventory (only one I-Pace in all of CA), low MF lease specials, It all made sense

 

[McRat]

Trivia - The #1 source of Fuel Cell patents is GM. GM build it's first FCEV in 1966 the Chevrolet Electrovan. But when it came time to comply with California's mandated EV law, they developed the GM Impact, which was renamed the EV1. H2 was not a viable solution. GM set up 1100 recharging locations for the EV1.

 

[Qtown charger]

While California is still giving $4500 out to anyone who buys a Hydrogen Car (the CARB director has a Toyota Mirai H2 car, they have reduced the EV rebates as such:
Income: If you report an income of $150k/yr single, or $300k/yr family, you are disqualified.
Number of rebates: You are now limited to 2 rebates for life.
Amount of rebate: It is now $2000 down from $2500.
Car Value: No EVs over $60k (many pickup trucks and SUVs cost more than that today, a 2020 base Corolla is just over $20k).

The Jaguar I-Pace, the Audi E-Tron, the Tesla Models S and X (perhaps a fully loaded Model 3, which is $66,990?) have all been taken off the list for 2020.

That's about the same in PA. While the rebate is nice - as someone said "free money" - it was not a deciding factor for myself. Perhaps I would have removed a few extras off my wish list and gone for the S or SE trim level, but I was sold on the I- pace after taking a test drive.
If there is one lesson here, perhaps it is that EV adoption on a larger scale will only proceed through "the masses". Tesla is doing just fine now that the M3 is targeted at this demographic, rather than the luxury market. If we want to encourage expanded EV adoption and a transition away from ICE vehicles, then the tax code must target "the masses" rather than the elites. With more EV's being sold the rebate must be reduced to balance the budgets. The smaller rebates still helps to reduce the cost difference between an EV and an equivalently trimmed ICE.
We will all benefit as the charging infrastructure grows, and our air becomes more pleasant.

And as a closing thought - increased registration fees for EV's are inevitable.

 

[Zofran]

And as a closing thought - increased registration fees for EV's are inevitable.

They already exist in South Carolina. No tax credit here, instead they charge you an extra $120 every two years. "Technically, it’s an added biennial registration fee, not a tax."

https://www.postandcourier.com/business/sc-has-a-tax-on-hybrid-vehicles-that-few-know/article_fea72866-83b6-11e9-9be3-036f6de08fa8.html

 

[Ayepace]

Ohio has never had rebates or tax credits for individuals. They have had incentives to businesses to install chargers. There's supposed to be a requirement that all municipalities install some charging equipment, but that seems very slow in adoption and I don't know of any enforcement. All they need is one charging station to meet the requirement.

Ohio now has a $200 per year fee (not a tax) for all BEV/PHEV vehicles for registrations submitted after 1 January 2020. I submitted a 5 year renewal before that. :smile2: No fees. >

 

[gtquan]

Ontario got rid of incentives with the change in government. The federal cutoff price is 49k which eliminates all luxury EVs and some non luxury ones. EV sales in Ontario have since plummeted compared to quebec and BC. A shame. Fed govt now talking about 10% luxury tax on >100k cars, boats, planes. I think it will kill ipace sales - the HSE versions anyway.

I do believe there should be across the board incentive regardless of income to encourage people to convert. If higher income people cant be convinced, how do we expect the middle class to come around. EVs are expensive across all ranges compared to ICE.

As an aside i feel taxed to death up here - 44% income. 13% on GST on all goods and services. Plus property tax. I'll stop complaining.

 

[epirali]

Well not to deviate into general taxes, but to me it is a balance between taxes I pay and what me/society gets for those taxes (not just me). Here in the US our infrastructure is abysmal, health care is unaffordable, we have no plan for EV/BEV/clean energy adoption that is long term, and we pay a little less and get a lot less. In UK people pay a little more than us and get a lot more.

EV adoption in EU is by mandate, and there is infrastructure and larger term planning to support that. Here I can’t get EA to work once in six tries, and the entire 350 KW charging benefit of the Taycan/800v architecture is moot because it hasn’t worked ONCE.

So what I am saying is just looking at EV tax credit is a small part of the picture. I for one would trade an EV tax credit for a federally planned and efficient rollout of public charging stations. So I can recommend EVs to people who need to travel far.

 

[ipace2020]

I can't be too upset by this, there are a host of programs to help lower income folks. If you can afford a Jag you don't need a rebate. If you do need it, you can't afford a Jag. No shame, no judgment, but I have no problem with means testing these rebates.

 

[Time2Roll]

I agree with the phase-in of the limits. I could see them gone in 3 to 5 years. Great program to kick start the EV movement but we are already 10 years into this and critical mass is pretty much achieved in CA.

 

[jsimon7777]

Well not to deviate into general taxes, but to me it is a balance between taxes I pay and what me/society gets for those taxes (not just me). Here in the US our infrastructure is abysmal, health care is unaffordable, we have no plan for EV/BEV/clean energy adoption that is long term, and we pay a little less and get a lot less. In UK people pay a little more than us and get a lot more.

EV adoption in EU is by mandate, and there is infrastructure and larger term planning to support that. Here I can’t get EA to work once in six tries, and the entire 350 KW charging benefit of the Taycan/800v architecture is moot because it hasn’t worked ONCE.

So what I am saying is just looking at EV tax credit is a small part of the picture. I for one would trade an EV tax credit for a federally planned and efficient rollout of public charging stations. So I can recommend EVs to people who need to travel far.

I totally agree. I often think of retiring outside the US for these reasons. People complain that the poor get subsidized with food stamps and whatnot, but I get far more tax rebates, tax deferrals, and whatnot.

 

[cjpardo]

I can understand California cutting back EV rebates since there are so many EV cars on the road. Unfortunately, they are mostly Tesla’s and to take cars off the list above “what is considered a rich buy in point” is ridiculous.

People still have a choice and what nobody talks about is what the price of your time is worth. Not only are EV about 20k higher than their sister ICE cars, we have to spend much more time refueling on the road than an ICE car.

I can honestly say that without the fed and Cali rebates, I would not have chosen the IPACE even though I think it’s beautiful. They had an impact on my decision and I’m sure they also have impacts on others people choice to purchase or lease EV over ICE.