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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
EDIT - See second post.

Since Tesla's go by production date, both these cars are 2018's.
It is the base Tesla Model S with 19" tires vs the First Edition on 20's.
Driving was done in the same area in the same fashion, that is Driven Like a Jaguar. Actually the Tesla was driven a bit slower on the freeway since I could not access the HOV or Toll Roads.

59 miles consumed 20.9 kWh in the Model S. Range mode.
57 miles consumed 19.0 kWh in the I-Pace. Dynamic mode.

Anyone seeing much of a difference there?

Things I like about the Model S?
The ability to leave the rear camera on while driving. I love this. It has poor rear vision like the I-Pace if not worse, and you can't trust the radar system for blind spots. It's right about 4 out 5 times at best.
"Floaty" ride would be good for long trips on rougher roads. Better than Cadillac CT6.
Good acceleration for the base model. In fact, might be quicker than I-Pace, or at least feels quicker. I was impressed.
Power steering column adjust.

Not so much?
Ingress and egress. Not quite Corvette tough, but a pain. The cushions on center armrest slide easily so you can't use them.
Comfort and adjustability of seat in this price segment.
Lack of HUD.
Hard to tell where the nose ends, and it's much longer than necessary.
I'm 90% sure the I-Pace turns sharper.
The car does not like bumpy corners driven aggressively. Seriously, do not try this on public roads. It will not tolerate it like the Jaguar will.
Very vague steering feel in this price segment. Even the Volt is better. The Jaguar and CT6 smoke it in handling control in technical areas.
ACC is not as smooth as GM or Jaguar. Autosteering was disabled on the rental car.

Observations:
Starting to look dated.
At 11,000 miles (same as my I-Pace) more creaking of loose pieces. I don't have any on the Jaguar.
Louder interior sound levels in traffic.
Some simple things are more complex than necessary. It took a couple minutes to find the odometer, figure out how to unlock passenger doors, shifting the car is odd, etc.
"Frunk" is larger, but not as big as people claim.
Interior is large, but not as large as Jaguar using my 6'1" son and my 6'1" self, and 2 women.
"Radar" images are not to be trusted, nor the Turn-by-turn navigation.

It's not a bad car, it's a good car. But I like driving the Jaguar a lot more.
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Update:

Wow. Tesla dropped the 75 kWh version just now, and dropped the prices on the Model S dramatically.
Glad I didn't buy the MS100D/P100DL instead of the Jaguar. I'd be upset.

Now, suddenly the MS is becoming more attractive. MS100D starts at $81,190 now with Autopilot and 370 miles of 'advertised' range, about 100 miles higher than the 75kWh.
 

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Update:

Wow. Tesla dropped the 75 kWh version just now, and dropped the prices on the Model S dramatically.
Glad I didn't buy the MS100D/P100DL instead of the Jaguar. I'd be upset.

Now, suddenly the MS is becoming more attractive. MS100D starts at $81,190 now with Autopilot and 370 miles of 'advertised' range, about 100 miles higher than the 75kWh.
Pricing and sparse interior kept me out of the Tesla space. I like the exterior look of the Model S (not the 3 or X). If price had been in that range a year ago, it's possible I would be in a Tesla. Thanks for the quick compare and for price shopping. :wink2:
 

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@McRat: funny I just dropped off my Roadster and was given a S70 as loaner. And honestly there is NO COMPARISON, I would not drive this car daily if it was free. The steering is laggy and numb and makes no sense, the suspension is both hard and boaty, and the interior looks like an older 80s fake luxury car. I had a coworker who just took delivery of the M3 drive it and the look on his face was priceless. He hated the drive and interior (he loves his M3), asked me over and over how much did people pay for these?

I had told him in the past but he didn't quite believe it until he had first hand experience. On the other hand I got the I Pace as a winter car, as a Jaguar ownership experience, and to support the company in its electrification. Over time it has tied as my favorite care to drive, and I find myself choosing it over other more "compelling" driving options.

If I had the Model S100P (which I test drove and rejected immediately) I think I would have either parked it or sold it long ago.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Got my update, not noticing much yet with H228.

Final mileage on MS75D was 94.8 miles used 32.8 kWh, says 346 Wh/mi.
It might be a bit more efficient than the I-Pace, but not much when driven the same in an urban environment in the summer.
 

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Elon Musk: price drops across the board.

Elon Musk five minutes later: we are selling every car we can possibly produce and are production constrained.

What?
 

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Just Wait for a used one. So many coming off lease and they have horrible resale value and by the end of this Q they will drop the price again.

Tesla would be a good cross country, throw around car.
IMO it's not a luxury car and it's still overpriced
 

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Elon Musk: price drops across the board.

Elon Musk five minutes later: we are selling every car we can possibly produce and are production constrained.

What?
If you are increasing production then you need to increase demand. You do this by lowering the price to get access to more buyers. Because of economies of scale and a larger number of units sold this should result in increased gross profits.
 

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If you are increasing production then you need to increase demand. You do this by lowering the price to get access to more buyers. Because of economies of scale and a larger number of units sold this should result in increased gross profits.
Ah, yes. I've heard this story before. We'll drop taxes. Then then economy will boom, and we'll take in more in taxes overall. The tax cuts will pay for themselves. Brilliant! What was the deficit again? Fake news.
 

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It's weird, as the Tesla prices keep dropping, they still seem overpriced. Why can't they give their vehicles decent seats? I can ignore a lot, but I can't ignore a lack of ventilated seats or extendable thigh support.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
If you are increasing production then you need to increase demand. You do this by lowering the price to get access to more buyers. Because of economies of scale and a larger number of units sold this should result in increased gross profits.
The prices on the Model S and Model X are still firmly over $80,000. To the buyer, they are getting more for their money, but the ATP has been increased. In other words, they are not opening themselves to new buyers, they are more likely trying to do Loyalty Upgrades with the mid 2019 MS/X pricing maneuver. It now takes a higher monthly salary to enter the MS/X showroom, and the ATP of the M3 is probably going to rise by making the M3P more affordable.
 

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If you are increasing production then you need to increase demand. You do this by lowering the price to get access to more buyers. Because of economies of scale and a larger number of units sold this should result in increased gross profits.
Its funny usually you increase production to MEET demand. But I guess there is a field of dreams version of business theory most of us are not familiar with.
 

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It also looks like they got rid of any potential way to get ventilated seats - even on the Performance model now.
 

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It also looks like they got rid of any potential way to get ventilated seats - even on the Performance model now.
They may be losing suppliers due to significantly smaller number of sales. Or they may be streamlining production and costs by reducing options for consumers because there are fewer units sold. I am guessing Model S and X customers will soon start to feel how the Roadster customers feel as their requirements and cars are slowly abandoned to minimal support because they are not the "center of attention" anymore.

Hey I think I just saw the age old business plan: we are losing money per unit but if we sell a lot more it will get better! Economies of scale have a curve and at large numbers that flattens out to a pretty fixed cost. Once suppliers are saturated in production numbers and are done to optimal cost buying more no longer reduces price. Its not just a magic incantation where past a point increasing numbers bring prices down, once at optimal it is flat.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
MS75D Range reported to EPA in https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=39794&flag=1 UDDS PAGE 18:
Recharge Event Energy (kiloWatt-hours) 84.48
Charge Depleting Range (Actual miles) 345.5
Advertised EPA Combined Range 259

I-PACE Range reported to EPA in https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=44998&flag=1 UDDS PAGE 8:
Recharge Event Energy (kiloWatt-hours) 103.977
Charge Depleting Range (Actual miles) 354.45
Advertised EPA Combined Range 234

Synopsis:

Without knowing the efficiency of the EVSE used, and AC>DC charge inverter, it's hard to tell how 'full' the battery gets. I am curious because I could only put in 97.3 kWh from 0% to 100% using a JuiceBox 32a Pro on 240vac. I'm thinking they were using the OEM EVSE?
But the big thing is Tesla filed 259 miles Combined from a 345.5 mile test, and Jaguar filed 234 miles on a 354.5 miles test.

This probably explains why I didn't see a difference in efficiency.
 

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They don't play their suppliers either.
Look at their D&B report and mechanics liens.
This is not normal for a financially sound company

I beleive the last round of financing went to pay Panasonic. It surely wasn't for Capex

The business model is to show deliveries, to keep the stock up, so they can raise money. Pozi economics
Profits are an afterthought
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Economy after H228 same loop, but traffic congestion, set to Eco. 90°F with A/C on 72°F. Driving 65-70 mph when possible. Stopped 5-10 minutes at customer's with IGN ON so it didn't reset. 57.2 mi loop, 299 Wh/mi or 3.34kWh/mi.
I believe this loop to actually be 58.4 miles when I did map miles.
NOTE: I used hypermiling techniques, but not drafting or Battery Saver mode. This would get about 280 miles to 0% SOC.
 

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