I-Pace Test Drive - Page 2 - Jaguar I-Pace EV400 Forum
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post #11 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-02-2018, 11:48 AM
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And how "hard" Tesla are selling compared to Jaguar I'm not sure, but I guess they are interrested in selling cars also.
I read Jag pan to make 20K i-Pace p.a. and significant number of those going to Waymo.

I can't believe that they will only sell that number ... so the question will be whether they can ramp up, or whether they are battery-constrained.
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post #12 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-02-2018, 12:17 PM
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I don't. We are a very Eco family, the sooner everyone has an EV the happier I will be.



Tough Far too many people make decisions on far too little data. Well, that's my opinion anyway


Ok, thank you for keeping it short.

It's very good to get different opionions, and I'm also excited to see how Jaguar, Audi and Mercedes are going to handle this market and production. In Norway we have pretty good coverage with both Tesla Superchargers and now also 100 kw CCS chargers. It's going to be interresting to see what happens with this with all the electric cars which will now fill the Norwegian market. Tesla have had a long time optimizing their software, but I should believe that other manufacturers also will fine tune their software to optimize range and performance over time.
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post #13 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-02-2018, 07:54 PM
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I read Jag pan to make 20K i-Pace p.a. and significant number of those going to Waymo.

I can't believe that they will only sell that number ... so the question will be whether they can ramp up, or whether they are battery-constrained.
I'm pretty sure 'battery-constrained' is just a Tesla thing. Regular companies just buy the batteries they need from large suppliers on the open market.
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post #14 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-03-2018, 12:06 AM
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Test drove an I-Pace first Edition yesterday, it is awesome... Drove over 50 miles with steering assist, not 1 fault.
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post #15 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-03-2018, 12:10 AM
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I don't. We are a very Eco family, the sooner everyone has an EV the happier I will be.



Tough Far too many people make decisions on far too little data. Well, that's my opinion anyway



Actually I don't hope that its better. I have no strong feelings on that score. I am very (VERY) sceptical that a Brand new EV from established ICE company will be superb. Might have great coach building, or an amazing dealer network, but I think chances are high that there will be surprises on EV drive-train/efficiency/battery-degradation.

There are some things that are important to me - such as rapid charging - and some things that are not important - such as the Ultimate Fit & Finish. Other folk will have different prioritise of course. I rocked up on this forum for two reasons: #1 curious to see how Jag gets on, its good to see a worthy long-range contender (where is everyone else in this race?? Getting yet-another-concept-rollout ready I expect ... ) and #2: to impart knowledge I have gained from driving Tesla for 2 years and 50,000 miles insofar as that may be useful for people thinking of getting a Jag (and not having had the experience of EV ownership).; Reviews have been mostly incomplete. and this isn't just a face-lift on an existing, well understood, technology ... its a ground-up-start-again, so plenty to misunderstand (supplier, marketing people, and customer alike)

So my wandering thoughts are:

CCS long distance rapid-charging too immature at present, all 3rd-party charging (Type-2 and CHAdeMO) I have used has been dreadful, whereas Tesla supercharger experience has been uniformly excellent, Hopefully CCS will be as good once rolled out.

Not everyone needs rapid-charging though, but I use Superchargers on at least 2 days a month.

Personally I prefer the minimalist cabin of Tesla, and the lack of buttons. In part because I think it enables software updates which are not constrained by the physical layout of knobs and dials. But I expect many/most? people coming from conventional vehicles will prefer the Jag style. My Tesla has had lots of updates in two years, and new buttons have appeared for a number of things. Quite possible that during lifetime of my car voice-recognition will supplement "buttons" and might require a complete rethink on the user-interface.

wH/mile efficiency is important to me, to minimise my time on days when I am out-of-range, and maybe even to reduce the days when I have to charge; the 90 was the biggest battery when i bought, but if buying again now I would buy the 100 (or maybe long-range Model-3). If a longer range battery was available I would buy that - at around 300 miles real-world range I would probably only need to charge (on the road) once a year. My dream would be 350-400 mile range (affordable though please ).

In terms of Performance / Handling: I have the Performance model, but I rarely use it (although I had a non-P loaner when my car was in for service and it is noticeably less "sharp" to drive. Front-end much less precise than the P-model. Dunno why (and I'm no expert), possible more "push" from the larger rear P-motor, maybe better suspension geometry on the P). Sub 5-second acceleration is alarming for passengers if they are not concentrating (e.g. hopping out at a junction in a tight gap), and sub 4-second (i.e. in Performance mode) far more so. Sure, its absolutely wild to demo to your mates, but that is all done and dusted in the first few weeks of ownership

If I was buying again I would probably be tempted by the non-P models - particularly to get maximum range. All these EVs are "very quick", so the difference between THIS and THAT is tiny, and definitely not a deciding factor for me. From what I have read I expect that the Jag will drive better on country roads. I do some of that (I live in the Country) but most of the time I drive to nearest highway junction and then 90%+ of my driving is on highway at max legal speed (plus a bit ). So might well be that the better handling of the Jag would not really make any difference to me (given I'm mostly highway cruise driving).

For me Adaptive Cruise Control and Stay-in-Lane are critical elements. I have been very surprised by how much AutoPilot reduces fatigue on longer journeys. My best-guess is that Tesla is best-in-class for my requirements, but in, say, 6 months time that might change. I actually think that AP1 suits me better than AP2 (ability to read speed signs is important because we have variable speed limits on Motorway in UK and they are camera-enforced). AP2 definitely better in edge conditions (over crest and roads with no marking on verge-side), but I don't use AutoPilot on the local roads - other than to test it out to see how progress is getting on. On Highway AP1 does all that I require (perhaps until we get to FSD)

I haven't owned a car in this class / price bracket before (its affordable for me, just choose not to spend that much money on a car) and I don't get particularly excited by style/looks (in the way that people want some particular wheels on their car, for example), so I'm not a good candidate for "Choose Jag for better interior"

The Tech is a mixed blessing. My day-job is software development and I tend to hate most modern products because of the continuous change, and the bugs that rush-to-market brings, and the fact that nowadays most of those projects are run by Marketing rather than IT, and Marketing are far more interested in pixel-perfect design/layout than usability and QA testing. Tesla infotainment has been dreadful (based solely on my scoring scale!), but all the issues have been fixed in a later version (and some have reappeared in a subsequent version ... an indication of poor regression testing). I think that frequent updates is the age-old problem of confusing people; that's one thing when it happens on your phone, quite another when the first time you discover there is a change is in an emergency life-threatening situation. But I expect all automotive manufacturers will go down the over-the-air updates route (but only because "everyone else is doing it and Customer THINKS that they want it")

I very much doubt that any Marque coming new to the market, with their first "Tesla Killer EV", is going to have a really really good Battery management System. Even Nissan, after all these years of experience, is shocking - e.g. RapidGate. Tesla clearly have an excellent system; 10% battery degradation at 150,000 miles, and most of that happens early on, so degradation thereafter is very slight.

So for me to buy an EV which is not Tesla:

Need rapid charging network at least as good as Tesla Superchargers
Need a good battery management system
Need good rapid charging - i.e. Taper only above, say, 80% - or give me 300 mile range and then I don't care about Taper
Need good efficiency and Range (Jag not looking good, but I am hopeful there will be a software update to fix it)
Need Adaptive Cruise Control and Stay-in-Lane - i.e. at least as good as Autopilot (on highway), and able to read speed signs

Dude, you work overtime on this forum trying to point out how good Tesla is... How much are they paying you? If you are not getting paid, why are you here? People that are interested in I-Pace and have driven the car are very unlikely to buy a Tesla. I-Pace is more comfortable, and just drives better providing a real drivers car experience.
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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-03-2018, 02:17 AM
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I'm pretty sure 'battery-constrained' is just a Tesla thing. Regular companies just buy the batteries they need from large suppliers on the open market.
Interesting as I see it the other way round, that battery makers don't have the production capacity to enable car makers to ramp up. I'm just not understanding why Bolt and Jag and others are only trying to make 20,000 units a year, but if Jag sell more AND make more I will definitely celebrate. I can't believe that Jag will only take 20K orders ... and yet everyone here seems to be getting a delivery date "soon", so either they aren't selling 20K units or are already ramping up (strange they haven't said so though ...)

China (alone) might be taking a very serious punt on Battery production which has two outcomes, either we become dependent on China for batteries with further erosion of balance-of-payment deficit, or China prioritises manufacturing a large percentage of those batteries into Chinese cars, and we buy the cars instead - even bigger trade deficit and erosion of local car manufacturing and employment.

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Originally Posted by I-PaceDave View Post
Dude, you work overtime on this forum trying to point out how good Tesla is... How much are they paying you? If you are not getting paid, why are you here? People that are interested in I-Pace and have driven the car are very unlikely to buy a Tesla. I-Pace is more comfortable, and just drives better providing a real drivers car experience.
I have already said all of the following on this forum:

That I'm pro-all-EV. Clearly I own a Tesla from my UserName ...
That I think the Jag will have better coach-building and drive better;
That Tesla have lousy back-office systems (here in UK at least). lead-time for service (6-7 weeks) is dire; parts available is terrible; support wastes huge amounts of resource by being inefficient; QA testing on OTA Infotainment updates is poor; and so on and so on.

And yet you insult me by accusing me of being paid by Tesla?

If Jag ticks your boxes then that's great. What I mostly hear is "Looks great, drives great, I much prefer the the interior"

So all the criteria usually used when buying a car, and naively ignoring all the aspects and concerns of EV-ownership.

I want all EV suppliers to succeed, but if people [naive buyers] buy them thinking they will go 300 miles, but only actually have 160 mile range, or that there will be a nationwide rapid-charging system by this-time-next-year, particularly outside USA (EA), then there is a high risk that those people will be well pissed off, and they will tell their friends and that will only serve Oil companies and continue the rape of the planet

But clearly this forum is turning into the same Jag-fanboys that the Tesla forums do in which case I'm happy to leave you to it.
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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-03-2018, 04:25 AM
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I'm just not understanding why Bolt and Jag and others are only trying to make 20,000 units a year
Well it's no mystery - EVs with big batteries are simply unprofitable. The giant batteries still just cost way too much, no matter who makes them. That may change someday, but for now, neither GM, nor Jaguar, nor Tesla can make these cars at a price competitive in the market with ICEVs. They lose money on every car they sell. GM and Jaguar (and Mercedes, Volvo, Audi, etc.) are getting into EVs to earn some compliance credits and dip a toe into an emerging market that may someday be viable. They could sell more EVs and lose more money, but that would be just stupid.

Tesla seems to have thought they could make a profit, but have failed miserably for 15 years now. At this point, they are just incinerating billions and billions of dollars of investor/creditor cash. EVs may be good business someday, but for now they are just cool toy cars.
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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-03-2018, 05:40 AM
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Tesla seems to have thought they could make a profit, but have failed miserably for 15 years now. At this point, they are just incinerating billions and billions of dollars of investor/creditor cash. EVs may be good business someday, but for now they are just cool toy cars.
Depends on how you look at it surely? Billions invested in Factories and plants that, unlike other makers, they didn't have, plus the whole maintenance infrastructure that goes with ramping up to selling 500K cars p.a. and, in Tesla's case, their rapid-charging infrastructure too, along with a whole load of "learning how to mass produce cars". Tesla say that their cars themselves are profitable ...

My thought was that the i-Pace would sell like hot cakes, what's not to like? I expected loads of people to prefer it to Tesla - build quality, and familiarity of cabin, and all those positive points. But I'm not hearing of anyone being told "sold out" so either that isn't the case (I'm both surprised and disappointed), or Jag are ramping up (That's great).

If EV cars cannot be made profitably, yet, and if we are serious about moving away from Oil then government needs to sponsor the change more. Clock is ticking ...
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-03-2018, 07:47 AM Thread Starter
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Acceleration was mind blowing. The raw numbers just don’t do it justice. Really pins you back in your seat and just takes your breath away. Cornering is incredible. I started off wimping out because I couldn’t believe a big car could corner like that but quickly gained confidence.
If you haven't had a test drive in a Tesla I recommend that you do. I'm not wanting you to buy one, but I think the comparison would be interesting [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG] and Tesla Sales won't be giving you the hard sell that dealer-franchises do - although having a reason why you would not be buying "yet" might shorten the conversation ... The Jag is mid 4S 0-60 I think? whereas the Model-S is high 2S and launch is a proper roller-coaster type feel (different money for the top-end Model-S and the Jag of course, so not a fair comparison other than "just having done it" [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG] )

I reckon that all these "Sports Electric Salons" are going to be similarly astonishing to ICE drivers (of the PetrolHead flavour), and probably worth having a comparison point (now that there is more than one to choose from). I think the Tesla "wallows" when pushed (and yet it gets round corners faster than it feels to me that it will be comfortable with [low centre of gravity]), bur my comparison-point is different as I come from smaller hatch - RS4 and the like - and my in-the-garage toy is a Lotus-7 kit thingie with 300 BPH Rover V8 ... which isn't anything like driving an EV either! albeit also a low 3Sec 0-60
Hi. Yes, I’ve driven Teslas. For me personally, I prefer the Jag. Tesla has some advantages. They seem to get better efficiency out of the batteries, but I’m hoping to see Jag improve in that area. Early Teslas suffered there too until they gained experience. For me, I prefer the Jag interior. I found it a more luxurious environment. I’m a gadget lover so I do love the tech-centric approach of Tesla, but I just felt happier sitting in the Jag.

I also found the Jag to be more responsive and “sharper” in terms of cornering and steering response. The Tesla accelerated quicker but it wasn’t like the Jag was slow.

But even if I preferred the Tesla, I live in the West of Scotland. My nearest Tesla dealer is over 100 miles away (and is the only one in Scotland by the way) and that’s just not practical. My nearest Jag dealer is 3 miles and there are another 3 (possibly more) within an hour.

I love what Tesla has done. Without them I doubt we would be seeing cars like the I-Pace at all. But the right car for me is the Jag. I think it has way better looks than the upcoming Audi and Mercedes offerings and I even prefer it to the X (which I was seriously considering prior to the Jag launch). It’s plenty fast enough and it was extremely comfortable. It also has plenty of tech toys and gadgets. I think it would be a sad world if everyone’s taste was identical. We’d all drive the same cars and wear the same clothes. I chose the Jag. It was close and it would have been even closer if Tesla had a better dealer network. But even then I think I’d have picked the Jag.
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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old 09-03-2018, 11:00 AM
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Depends on how you look at it surely? Billions invested in Factories and plants that, unlike other makers, they didn't have, plus the whole maintenance infrastructure that goes with ramping up to selling 500K cars p.a. and, in Tesla's case, their rapid-charging infrastructure too, along with a whole load of "learning how to mass produce cars". Tesla say that their cars themselves are profitable ...

My thought was that the i-Pace would sell like hot cakes, what's not to like? I expected loads of people to prefer it to Tesla - build quality, and familiarity of cabin, and all those positive points. But I'm not hearing of anyone being told "sold out" so either that isn't the case (I'm both surprised and disappointed), or Jag are ramping up (That's great).

If EV cars cannot be made profitably, yet, and if we are serious about moving away from Oil then government needs to sponsor the change more. Clock is ticking ...
I-Pace seems to be selling fine, every one that have left the factory so far has been a sold model. Once there are I-Pace's to test drive, the people see around the internet FUD about range, it is going to sell all they can build which I expect will be ,30K a year knowing Magna's capability in Graz. For me the lower volume adds value, as I do not want to have the same car as my neighbor, and out area is flooded with Tesla's. In my circle of friends there are 2 Model S, 3 Model X, and 5 Model 3 now, at parties the Tesla folks stand in their own corner and compare service Center visits, and they all have stories. Actually my good buddy that has an X in the shop for repairs last week and had a S P100D as a loaner, so I got to drive it just a day before my I-Pace test drive. So the S P100D has brutal acceleration, but the steering is loose and numb, and the dynamics of the chassis in transition L to R is very sloppy, it also like all Tesla's had quite a few rattles and weird noises at different speeds, and a fair amount of wind and EV noises. On the plus side, Tesla has greatly improved the seats both front and back from earlier Model S I have driven. Driving the I-Pace so soon after the P100D Model S really gave me an appreciation for Jaguar"s chassis tuning, and the steering feel. Also the interior from the moment you walk up and sit in the I-Pace you feel like part of the car, the UI is fantastic (although I did not drill down into the infotainment as my purpose was to feel the drive, and test the range) The HVAC controls are the most intuitive I have ever seen in any car, and the tough screen to move airflow is well thought out, and perfectly executed.

For those of you who think a Tesla is more technologically advanced, hmmmm, depends on what you are talking about... I see here in the comments the battery is mentioned with regard to efficiency, and I have to remind you a 90KWh battery using any chemistry has the same energy stored as any other companies 90 KWh battery. LG Chem's batteries, seem to be more stable then Tesla/Panansonic's chemistry in S and X. We can just compare Chevy Bolt to Tesla S fire statistics and draw some conclusion on that. Degradation also seems to be about equal, and Bolt, like I-pace charge daily to 100%, where Tesla does not recommend that, so when you compare daily range... hmmm... Where I think I-Pace is actually more technologically advanced then Tesla S & X is chassis stiffness, and torsional rigidity (this really helps at keeping away squeaks and rattles over the life of the car), door fit and closure, convenience options, HUD, Gesture Tailgate, Blind Spot warning in the side mirrors, rear seat exit blind spot warning, 360 camera, 4 zone climate control with passenger sensing mode that does not heat or cool areas of the car without passengers, heated and cooled front seats, I mean you can go on and on with technologies that the I-Pace has, that are missing in the Tesla models.

BTW TeslaOwner, you better go hide your car on track day, because the I-Pace will embarrass you on a road course, even with substantially less power, and worse aerodynamics then your Model S has... Hmm, could that be cooling, and suspension technology? And as you your A/P junior, I-Pace has the much refined version of Mobileye, which unfortunately Tesla does not get updates for like I-Pace does. So I-Pace steering assist will get better with time, where as your car, is stuck in the past. but hey, you can go spend 150K again, and get the P100D, which the half price I-pace will still beat on track day... Technology? yeah!

TeslaOwner, I noticed that you have posted a lot of links and videos on here, but only ones that create FUD about the I-Pace, you missed the one where Randy Pobst set the fastest stock 4 door EV lap at Laguna Seca last week in an I-Pace, I am sure it was a minor oversight? Man, if this I-Pace can already beat all S and X on the track, what is Tesla going to do when Jaguar builds an I-Pace SVR, which from what I have heard is already in the development phase, and likely 18 months from production?
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