After 4 months... - Jaguar I-Pace EV400 Forum
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 12:17 PM Thread Starter
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After 4 months...

A Jaguar I-Pace owner’s feedback, after few months…

I have been trying my I-Pace since March 2019 and could summarize the electric car in one word: anguish. Pure anguish, even at night, when the brain wakes you up by calculating kw, weights, aerodynamics, future destinations and... unfathomable events happening when you’re driving for work or leisure.

It makes no sense trying to imagine the typical day of the electric motorist, doing real miracles to prove the whole world that even with an EV you can truly lead a normal life at the wheel - there are too many variables and too many unexpected transportation needs, to be able to trace a statistic of a weekly use – it’s quite obvious, isn’t it?
Statistics often take into consideration eight basic users - with distances of no more than 60/70 km on daily basis - and only two salespeople, thus succeeding in "demonstrating" the world that even with an electric car you can do anything you like. But it’s all too absurd.

However, reviewers, technicians and many Youtubers are doing their utmost to make us digest the pill - still very bitter today - of the electric future given for imminent; but we're not even in the very ice age of battery-powered cars! Not a single "ingredient" currently available seems to be right to make that strange pill. In particular:

a) the electric recharge network is patched together at best, not very reliable, in the hands of dozens of different vendors and as many different methods of registration, membership, refueling, etc. As if to buy conventional gas, you had to register from home first, through non user-friendly web portals, unreliable apps, expensive dongles, cards, etc.

b) Then there are the alleged range figures stated by the manufacturers: class action stuff at its best, rather than a mere new firmware needed! On the other hand, it is true that the same figures of traditional cars wink at that famous Collodi’s puppet.

c) Not to mention that dreary on-board computer that continues to play "fortune teller", with the sword of Damocles of an improbable range calculated in real time. With a traditional car you just take a look at the fuel gauge twice a day - on an EV your eyes are glued to that **** number. Distressing and annoying, to say the least.

d) Shall I also talk about the absurdity of the so-called "light foot driving", strongly suggested by many experts ?! If you go slow, you forget about overtaking, you do not full blast the AC, you enjoy music not too load and ... you also put yourself on a diet (your weight will less negatively impact with the one of the car itself), range WILL increase. But do we really think that wealthy Jaguar, Tesla or Audi E-Tron users would drive like a pensioner on a Fiat Panda?!?! It would be just like strongly enforcing speed limits on those who own a Ferrari Testarossa, an Aston Martin DB11 or a Lamborghini Aventador!

e) Finally, there’s domestic charging. The so-called wallbox must be installed, in the vain hope of saving a few hours from biblical charging times. Then the power of the house meter must be increased as well - at least up to 6 Kw. However, we will never be able to recharge our electric vehicle benefiting from the maximum power of our meter, since domestic appliances will always play the biggest role (refrigerators, cooking plates, ovens, washing machines, dishwashers, etc.). The best solution - according to the experts - would be that of a 10/16 Kw, three-phased meter: Apart from the dramatic increase in running costs for this type of supply, cars like the Jaguar I-Pace would not profit from it at all. Its designers have chosen a single phase, built-in transformer, which can absorb up to 7 Kw/h all being well ! This particular feature of the Tesla alleged rival sanctions its thunderous failure: in Italy and in Europe there are many 22 Kw charging points (the 50 Kw/h ones are rare birds): while Tesla EVs can fully exploit them, the I-Pace is limited to those absurd 7Kw / h, forcing us to take long stop-overs into account.

In a nutshell, a 7Kw/h recharge translates into an average 30 kilometers per hour. From Milan to Cesenatico, on the Adriatic Sea, you should stop and recharge for at least 4 hours, in order to frighten away the ghost of a tow truck! If we were on board with three other passengers, luggage and decent air conditioning, we would have to stop for the night halfway, probably in a hotel equipped with charging facilities (most probably 22 Kw/h ones, too powerful for a Jaguar I-Pace!).


Last but not least, a further negative note should be added regarding our beloved Jaguar EV: the clumsy, official Jaguar Remote App. In a nutshell, it looks like an application written all too quickly and, therefore, in desperate need of dramatic improvements. Fancy an example? Instead of forcing users to enter an e-mail address and password - whenever the App is opened – a simple, quicker PIN wo do wonders. Especially considering how often that very App is accessed by users.

Making the car blink and toot the horn - hoping to scare off somebody eyeing it – would take ages, even if we did not mistype our log-in information on a tiny cellphone screen – such a too common annoyance already!

Connecting to the car and giving it any command does not always happen seamlessly- even if you are in front of it. The App itself often freezes, thus requiring tedious re-launch or refresh procedures.

The scheduled start-up and the choice of the preferred recharging times still does not work, neither from the App nor from the on-board computer. Another thing to improve RIGHT NOW, in my humble opinion.

On a much brighter side, in terms of construction and finishing, there is nothing to say: the I-Pace is definitely a car that is just too beautiful to... collapse under the weight of all the problems mentioned so far.

To the classic question of whether an electric car like the I-Pace it’s better in the city traffic or on the highway, I would feel like answering: "It works at best in your garage!". There it would be able to stir your dreams and your imagination, without being crushed by the weight of what happens when driving it!

But, after all, I’ve decided to believe in electric cars, probably deserving to be called names, especially after all I’ve just said. I sincerely believe that it would take very little to truly welcome the next energy revolution, without having to wait for more several decades.

It goes without saying that, if the network of charging stations was consistently harmonized and developed "with a grain of salt" (we’ve got enough 22 Kw/h chargers, let’s boost 50 Kw/h facilities!), the situation would dramatically change for the better.
But it even turns out that ENEL, for example, is experiencing major legal difficulties to install its own charging stations along the very Italian highways! Ludicrous to say the very least…

It would be reasonable to expect constant and significant improvements to their "prototype" products by automotive manufacturers: why not giving the Jaguar I-Pace a new transformer capable of draining all those 22 Kw/h pinpointing the whole European recharge network?
Who cares about the assisted or automatic driving systems, when the car must necessarily stop hours and hours for a half-full tank? Pay more attention to real, vital features, rather than boisterous slogans and mere selling points!

All in all, there are just two very important suggestions, which translate into real needs of EV users and, hopefully, concrete priorities manufacturers.

While science strives to create new types of batteries, increasingly efficient, achieving good results depends more on common sense than on enlightened minds.

As of today, I don't think I would buy an electric car again, but I still think of doing it again in three or four years - I've already said it, I'm probably an incurable and maybe a little crazy dreamer ...
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 01:08 PM
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It's just way, way easier to never buy an electric car as your only car. It should be a second car, but THE desired car to drive. And I think most people here have ICE cars for all those other needs. I can surely see the anxiety if that was your only car. And another reason for some, like me, to get a gas/hybrid instead. A really good example of the satisfying thought of getting that hybrid was just last week. I just got home and was out of battery on my ELR. I was going to go plug in the car and all of a sudden we had thunderstorms from H*ll and lost power until almost dawn the next day. Of course, without power I could not charge my car. But I just took off in gas mode the next day - no worries!



Unfortunately, most people could care less about gas/hybrids, they just want electric only with big range so hardly anyone is making them anymore. A real bummer for guys like me....
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 01:24 PM
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@alessandrogualtieri : I saw you post a version of this on another thread, may I ask why start yet another one listing the same complaints and observations? I tried to respond on the other thread you abandoned.

I am sorry you are so frustrated, but a lot of your points are simply inaccurate. There is no "competing" with other appliances when charging at 7KW, power is not "shared" across circuits. That's NOT how it works.

I have had MANY electric cars, starting from ones with a range of 70 miles. For vast majority of people who are NOT taking a road trip a 200 mile range is MORE than they will use in one day, and there is no range anxiety. If you need to drive large distances daily you should NOT buy an EV at this time, this is obvious. There is no weekly anxiety if you simply plug it in every night. If you do not have access to a charging point WHY would you buy an EV? It would be like buying an ICE somewhere with no gas stations and then complaining about finding gas.

Electric cars are not supposed to be "believed in." They are the future. Plain and simple. Whether it is battery EVs, or hydrogen EVs, or maybe super capacitor EVs. Once you have owned and driven an electric car you realize how ICE vehicles are a little like horse and buggy. Sure the horse can graze in the field and doesn't need its tires rotated, but I wouldn't go back.

Did you do ANY research before you bought your car?

@deafsoundguy : the Volt was a good version of this, yet was killed because Americans don't buy "little cars." If a PHEV can do say 50 miles before it turns on a gas generator a lot of people would be able to drive almost pure electric with no range anxiety or have one car they can use for longer trips. I got my i3 for that reason, unfortunately it was not a great car. But it is still sold and available.
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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 04:10 PM
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Without a location, the OP's post can't be evaluated.
But I can reference it's subjects as they apply to the Western United States. In countries with 200-230v residential power, everything changes. It gets cheaper.

> Purchasing and installing a Level 2 (200-240v) EVSE is part of being able to refuel at home. Level 1 charging (120v here) is not enough for most people. It can cost less than $600 for a complete 32 amp L2 home charger setup, or as much as $2000 if you need to hire someone. Since charging is done at night, and the limit is 32 amps, it is seldom a problem with exceeding the panel rating.

> Remote charging slower than 40 kW is pretty pointless if you have a life. That's why most remote DCFC stations are 50 kW or higher. Most new installations are 150kW to 350kW. The I-Pace charges at a typical average of 75 kW.

> You do not have to constantly type in your Jaguar user ID and password unless your settings in your phone do not allow cookies.

> Many DCFC chargers, especially new ones, accept credit cards just like gas stations do. It is best to be prepared though, and have cards for the various companies that service DCFCs in your area.

Here's how my last 10,000 miles have been:

I wake up, unplug my car if it's plugged in, and drive from 6 to 125 miles on a normal work day. This is less than 6.5 hr of L2 charging starting at 10 PM when the cost per kWh is lowest.
If I take a weekend trip, I can drive as fast as I like for 150 miles, then I need to recharge for 30-50 minutes at a 50kW-350kW DCFC.

There is no brand of EV that is as convenient as a gas rental car when it comes to out-of-town driving. There are about one hundred and fifty thousand licensed gasoline stations in the USA alone. There are at least 1,000 gaps between EV chargers of more than 200 miles in the US.
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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by McRat View Post
Without a location, the OP's post can't be evaluated.
But I can reference it's subjects as they apply to the Western United States. In countries with 200-230v residential power, everything changes. It gets cheaper.

> Purchasing and installing a Level 2 (200-240v) EVSE is part of being able to refuel at home. Level 1 charging (120v here) is not enough for most people. It can cost less than $600 for a complete 32 amp L2 home charger setup, or as much as $2000 if you need to hire someone. Since charging is done at night, and the limit is 32 amps, it is seldom a problem with exceeding the panel rating.

> Remote charging slower than 40 kW is pretty pointless if you have a life. That's why most remote DCFC stations are 50 kW or higher. Most new installations are 150kW to 350kW. The I-Pace charges at a typical average of 75 kW.

> You do not have to constantly type in your Jaguar user ID and password unless your settings in your phone do not allow cookies.

> Many DCFC chargers, especially new ones, accept credit cards just like gas stations do. It is best to be prepared though, and have cards for the various companies that service DCFCs in your area.

Here's how my last 10,000 miles have been:

I wake up, unplug my car if it's plugged in, and drive from 6 to 125 miles on a normal work day. This is less than 6.5 hr of L2 charging starting at 10 PM when the cost per kWh is lowest.
If I take a weekend trip, I can drive as fast as I like for 150 miles, then I need to recharge for 30-50 minutes at a 50kW-350kW DCFC.

There is no brand of EV that is as convenient as a gas rental car when it comes to out-of-town driving. There are about one hundred and fifty thousand licensed gasoline stations in the USA alone. There are at least 1,000 gaps between EV chargers of more than 200 miles in the US.
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 04:49 PM
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@McRat : I agree L1 is not a good idea, but in European countries a 12 hour overnight L1 charge will yield 40+ KW of charge. Which means if you are not driving more than 80-100 miles you could get by with an L1 (unlike here in the US where the inefficiencies of 110/120 means we don't really get 1/2 of that and its pretty useless).

Not advisable but really not out of the question either depending.
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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 06:27 PM
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I have no problem. I commute 50-60 miles per day. I plug in each night. I get 230-250 miles every morning. God forbid, he bought a VW e-Golf with 125 miles of range. He'll go insane!
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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-02-2019, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by epirali View Post
@McRat : I agree L1 is not a good idea, but in European countries a 12 hour overnight L1 charge will yield 40+ KW of charge. Which means if you are not driving more than 80-100 miles you could get by with an L1 (unlike here in the US where the inefficiencies of 110/120 means we don't really get 1/2 of that and its pretty useless).

Not advisable but really not out of the question either depending.
I'm still stuck on American lingo, where L1 isn't 16 amps or less, it's 120 vac. I consider L2 to be 240 vac.

Yes, 200+ volts at 16 amps is fine for most people.

The bigger issue is we now have DCFC CCS network that is largely undocumented on it's speed. They should have seen this coming when they started putting up some 24 kW CCS sites while many were 50 kW. Now we have more.

Perhaps new "Code lingo" is needed for the real world of EVs. I'd do it this way:
J01 = J1772, 1kW.
J03 = J1772, 3kW.
J07 = J1772, 7kW.
J10 = J1772, 10kW.

CHA020 = CHAdeMO 20kW
CHA100 = CHAdeMO 100kW

CCS024 = CCS 24kW
CCS050
CCS350

TA10 = Tesla AC 10kW

TS120 = Tesla DCFC 120kW

Because all that really matters about a charging station is the format, and the kW. Levels are useless.

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-03-2019, 12:19 AM
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I don't think an electric car is for you. I've been driving electric since 2013 and have rarely had any of the issues you state, but I don't take road trips. I would prefer to fly somewhere rather than drive for hours to get there. Here in Southern CA there are lots of charging choices if you do need to drive beyond your car's range but many people just go to work and back and are fine charging at home. And big employers in California provide vehicle charging while their employees are at work all day.

Unless you are referring to something else, the range figures manufacturers give are the conclusions of government agencies that test the vehicles, so blame them if it's inaccurate, not the manufacturers.

As for the remaining range guess-o-meter in the I-pace, just as you can look at your fuel gage in a gas-powered car, you can look at the percentage of battery remaining to get a similar idea of what you have left and see the rate at which you consume power and judge for yourself how much further you can go.

I do not have any "wall box installed", I have an EVSE, a cable with a small inline electric controller I can hold in my hand (I did have to install the outlet it's plugged into in 2013 to plug in my Tesla). Here there are many houses that are not hundreds of years old and have electric service that handles vehicle charging and appliances at the same time. I get a great overnight electric rate and do all my charging, dishwashing, clothes washing, etc. timed to start after midnight and have never had any electrical problems from running them together.

The typical EV driver here does just fine. If it doesn't work for you because of your driving needs, electrical provisioning, or other reasons then dont drive electric, but it has worked well for me for many years and works for many people.
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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old 07-04-2019, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alessandrogualtieri View Post
A Jaguar I-Pace owner’s feedback, after few months…

I have been trying my I-Pace since March 2019 and could summarize the electric car in one word: anguish. Pure anguish, even at night, when the brain wakes you up by calculating kw, weights, aerodynamics, future destinations and... unfathomable events happening when you’re driving for work or leisure.

It makes no sense trying to imagine the typical day of the electric motorist, doing real miracles to prove the whole world that even with an EV you can truly lead a normal life at the wheel - there are too many variables and too many unexpected transportation needs, to be able to trace a statistic of a weekly use – it’s quite obvious, isn’t it?
Statistics often take into consideration eight basic users - with distances of no more than 60/70 km on daily basis - and only two salespeople, thus succeeding in "demonstrating" the world that even with an electric car you can do anything you like. But it’s all too absurd.

However, reviewers, technicians and many Youtubers are doing their utmost to make us digest the pill - still very bitter today - of the electric future given for imminent; but we're not even in the very ice age of battery-powered cars! Not a single "ingredient" currently available seems to be right to make that strange pill. In particular:
I'd like to know your job and what your typical driving day is like. It sounds like it is not what a typical driver might encounter. All the reviews I have seen on YouTube have been close to my experience in the few weeks and 2000+km of driving. I pout in a 7kW charger at home and plug in every few days, essentially when i go below 50%. So far it has been mostly stress free and seems consistent with most people's experience so far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alessandrogualtieri View Post

a) the electric recharge network is patched together at best, not very reliable, in the hands of dozens of different vendors and as many different methods of registration, membership, refueling, etc. As if to buy conventional gas, you had to register from home first, through non user-friendly web portals, unreliable apps, expensive dongles, cards, etc.
I agree that the public charging is a bit complicated. I joined 2-3 different networks (1 in Canada and 2 US ones), but this took about 30 min to set up, download the apps and they have all worked fine so far. It sounds like Italy is far behind on electrification, both in public and in the home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alessandrogualtieri View Post

b) Then there are the alleged range figures stated by the manufacturers: class action stuff at its best, rather than a mere new firmware needed! On the other hand, it is true that the same figures of traditional cars wink at that famous Collodi’s puppet.
I have not gone to 0% yet, but so far, the predicted range is within 5-10% of what the computer said at the start, which is similar to how your range in a conventional car can vary with drive style, city vs. highway, highway speed etc...,

Quote:
Originally Posted by alessandrogualtieri View Post

c) Not to mention that dreary on-board computer that continues to play "fortune teller", with the sword of Damocles of an improbable range calculated in real time. With a traditional car you just take a look at the fuel gauge twice a day - on an EV your eyes are glued to that **** number. Distressing and annoying, to say the least.
Unless you have a bit of OCD about range (we all have a bot of OCD about something, so I am not judging), this should lessen with experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alessandrogualtieri View Post

d) Shall I also talk about the absurdity of the so-called "light foot driving", strongly suggested by many experts ?! If you go slow, you forget about overtaking, you do not full blast the AC, you enjoy music not too load and ... you also put yourself on a diet (your weight will less negatively impact with the one of the car itself), range WILL increase. But do we really think that wealthy Jaguar, Tesla or Audi E-Tron users would drive like a pensioner on a Fiat Panda?!?! It would be just like strongly enforcing speed limits on those who own a Ferrari Testarossa, an Aston Martin DB11 or a Lamborghini Aventador!
OCD again maybe? These light driving tips have been around for decades and are not unique to EV. I am generally a light foot, but am not afraid to put the pedal down to pass and it has a negligible effect on range. I realize that typical driving in Italy may be very different (I've driven there several times).

Quote:
Originally Posted by alessandrogualtieri View Post
e) Finally, there’s domestic charging. The so-called wallbox must be installed, in the vain hope of saving a few hours from biblical charging times. Then the power of the house meter must be increased as well - at least up to 6 Kw. However, we will never be able to recharge our electric vehicle benefiting from the maximum power of our meter, since domestic appliances will always play the biggest role (refrigerators, cooking plates, ovens, washing machines, dishwashers, etc.). The best solution - according to the experts - would be that of a 10/16 Kw, three-phased meter: Apart from the dramatic increase in running costs for this type of supply, cars like the Jaguar I-Pace would not profit from it at all. Its designers have chosen a single phase, built-in transformer, which can absorb up to 7 Kw/h all being well ! This particular feature of the Tesla alleged rival sanctions its thunderous failure: in Italy and in Europe there are many 22 Kw charging points (the 50 Kw/h ones are rare birds): while Tesla EVs can fully exploit them, the I-Pace is limited to those absurd 7Kw / h, forcing us to take long stop-overs into account.

In a nutshell, a 7Kw/h recharge translates into an average 30 kilometers per hour. From Milan to Cesenatico, on the Adriatic Sea, you should stop and recharge for at least 4 hours, in order to frighten away the ghost of a tow truck! If we were on board with three other passengers, luggage and decent air conditioning, we would have to stop for the night halfway, probably in a hotel equipped with charging facilities (most probably 22 Kw/h ones, too powerful for a Jaguar I-Pace!).
The i-pace can just make that trip (~300km) in one charge. I'd stop somewhere en-route and top up while having an espresso and enjoy the Italian country side but you'd only need 15min or so if you had a 50kW charger. Tongue in cheek, I realize Italy seems to have only discovered electricity recently (despite giving us Tesla, Fermi and other amazing E&M Physicists), but I find it hard to bellevie your house only has a 7kW connection to the mains. I do recall that hotel in Milan however...

Quote:
Originally Posted by alessandrogualtieri View Post
Last but not least, a further negative note should be added regarding our beloved Jaguar EV: the clumsy, official Jaguar Remote App. In a nutshell, it looks like an application written all too quickly and, therefore, in desperate need of dramatic improvements. Fancy an example? Instead of forcing users to enter an e-mail address and password - whenever the App is opened – a simple, quicker PIN wo do wonders. Especially considering how often that very App is accessed by users.

Making the car blink and toot the horn - hoping to scare off somebody eyeing it – would take ages, even if we did not mistype our log-in information on a tiny cellphone screen – such a too common annoyance already!

Connecting to the car and giving it any command does not always happen seamlessly- even if you are in front of it. The App itself often freezes, thus requiring tedious re-launch or refresh procedures.

The scheduled start-up and the choice of the preferred recharging times still does not work, neither from the App nor from the on-board computer. Another thing to improve RIGHT NOW, in my humble opinion.
Must be running Android? Don't see much issues with the iOS version, other than needing to be a bit better looking. Mine just stays logged in all the time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alessandrogualtieri View Post
On a much brighter side, in terms of construction and finishing, there is nothing to say: the I-Pace is definitely a car that is just too beautiful to... collapse under the weight of all the problems mentioned so far.

To the classic question of whether an electric car like the I-Pace it’s better in the city traffic or on the highway, I would feel like answering: "It works at best in your garage!". There it would be able to stir your dreams and your imagination, without being crushed by the weight of what happens when driving it!
I don't doubt your experience, but it is not consistent with what seems to be reported here. I have only had it for 3 weeks, but no issues at all so far and I've done day to day and one 500km trip (1000k round trip) though the mountains with no issues with the car or access to charging.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alessandrogualtieri View Post

But, after all, I’ve decided to believe in electric cars, probably deserving to be called names, especially after all I’ve just said. I sincerely believe that it would take very little to truly welcome the next energy revolution, without having to wait for more several decades.

It goes without saying that, if the network of charging stations was consistently harmonized and developed "with a grain of salt" (we’ve got enough 22 Kw/h chargers, let’s boost 50 Kw/h facilities!), the situation would dramatically change for the better.
But it even turns out that ENEL, for example, is experiencing major legal difficulties to install its own charging stations along the very Italian highways! Ludicrous to say the very least…
The issue seems more with infrastructure than the car itself. Countries that have embraced EV and started earlier to build in the needed infrastructure will adopt EVs first. In addition to my personal 7kW charger in my home (which does not prevent me from cooking while drying my clothes with the AC on), I have 6 other public chargers on the street within 300m of my home with reserved parking. Charging with these would still cost 1/5 of equivalent fuel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alessandrogualtieri View Post
It would be reasonable to expect constant and significant improvements to their "prototype" products by automotive manufacturers: why not giving the Jaguar I-Pace a new transformer capable of draining all those 22 Kw/h pinpointing the whole European recharge network?
Who cares about the assisted or automatic driving systems, when the car must necessarily stop hours and hours for a half-full tank? Pay more attention to real, vital features, rather than boisterous slogans and mere selling points!

All in all, there are just two very important suggestions, which translate into real needs of EV users and, hopefully, concrete priorities manufacturers.

While science strives to create new types of batteries, increasingly efficient, achieving good results depends more on common sense than on enlightened minds.

As of today, I don't think I would buy an electric car again, but I still think of doing it again in three or four years - I've already said it, I'm probably an incurable and maybe a little crazy dreamer ...
Seems like your issues are mostly about the lack if infrastructure in Italy. If they can get 50kW chargers deployed (or better still, 100kW chargers), then charging on the highway falls below 1 hour, and even less for that trip to Cesenatico.
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