VW ID3 software - Jaguar I-Pace EV400 Forum
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-20-2019, 09:30 PM Thread Starter
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VW ID3 software

Many of you have probably seen this

https://electrek.co/2019/12/19/volks...introductions/

Why am I not surprised
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-21-2019, 05:29 AM
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I am a little skeptical about this “story.”
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-24-2019, 11:35 AM
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I am a little skeptical about this “story.”
The original source was an article in Germany. The "story" has been published widely now, and VW has not disputed it.

When VW said they were starting production of ID.3 in November but not delivering customer cars until June something didn't compute. Now we know why: VW knew that software was not ready. That this new software is behind schedule is not surprising. VW has brought all the software development for this car in-house, rather than depending on third-party suppliers as they have for every other car they produce. They want every bit of code in the car to be OTA updateable, just like Tesla. This can't be accomplished if you have tens of vendors supplying code for suspension, braking system, motor control, infotainment, climate, etc.

Based on 30 years of software development management experience, I feel confident in making the following predictions:

1) The software will not be ready in June
2) Even when deemed ready it will be buggy
3) With the enormous pressure to ship it will be released to customers even though it is not ready
4) A number of people will be fired
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-25-2019, 05:31 AM
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With the same number of years in embedded and high performance and real-time software development I still do not buy it. A great deal of the basic body control software will be very similar to other vehicles they have. You are making sound like this is their first “computer” system in a car. The OTA software capability is not as huge a deal as you make it up to be, it requires a data path, and very robust fail safe method of updating the firmware. These things are all very well developed and are not at all unique to cars.

The most complex and unique bit of the code is the drivetrain and that is not general “software development,” it is highly specialized code. I do not believe they are “behind” in that. The infotainment is the most bloated and most lines of code, specially the graphic heavy “visual” elements and its the easiest to update over the air. The drivetrain control software is developed and tested at the same time as the drivetrain as it requires tuning and testing. The changes, like the one JLR release, may come from data collection and refinements, it won’t delay release of the car.

While it is true that Tesla has done a good job in the software systems of their cars, its really neither unique nor as big of a deal as everyone makes it out to be. They were just willing to push less tested core which could have bad consequences while traditional manufacturers run long complex tests and did not release updates into the wild unless necessary or in model year transitions. And they have opened up the car infotainment module to more “apps” take that as you will, pro or con.

JLRs big mistakes were using embedded Windows and probably using frameworks that are “supposed” to allow rapid and “crash proof” code, while in reality they end up being bloatware, unresponsive, terminated by errors rather than caught in development, and absolutely not able to be real time due to framework issues like garbage collection.

It ain’t magic.
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-25-2019, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by epirali View Post
With the same number of years in embedded and high performance and real-time software development I still do not buy it. A great deal of the basic body control software will be very similar to other vehicles they have. You are making sound like this is their first “computer” system in a car. The OTA software capability is not as huge a deal as you make it up to be, it requires a data path, and very robust fail safe method of updating the firmware. These things are all very well developed and are not at all unique to cars.
I suggest you read the article below in its entirety and tell me if you still feel that what VW is doing is just a small matter of programming.

Quote:
Christian Senger, head of the Digital Car and Services division for Volkswagen Group...says Volkswagen will now go in the opposite direction from the one Ferdinand Piëch mandated decades ago. It will consolidate all of its software development into one new division that will employ up to 10,000 people within the next 5 years. The objective is to create a single unified automotive operating system that will run everything from a VW Polo to an Audi A8.
A completely new software architecture. All software done in-house. And the ID.3 is the first instantiation. Personally I'm not surprised that it is at least 6 months late.

https://cleantechnica.com/2019/09/16...of-its-brands/
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-26-2019, 06:14 AM
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Article talks about using android and consolidating work across platforms. Are you implying they plan to do all that at once before ID3? Other details were minor things like changing from CAN to IP based protocol. And even then some of the underlying code is the same, it may run on a unified Linux platform.

Show me an article that says they are starting everything from scratch.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-26-2019, 11:36 PM
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Show me an article that says they are starting everything from scratch.
I'm working on finding something in English. Meanwhile could you please show me an article where VW denies that the software is 6 months late and that the cars are being manufactured and parked in lots until the software is ready?
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 12-27-2019, 01:09 AM
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Show me an article that says they are starting everything from scratch.
Quote:
VW's E3 electronics platform is used for the first time in the first ID. "So far, there are up to 100 control units, small computers in a car," said electronics director Rolf Zöller in an interview with WirtschaftsWoche . "The new platform only has three to five central computers."
VW's existing platforms have up to 100 micro controllers. Their new platform has only 3-5 central computers. So either VW is writing everything from scratch for their new software architecture or they are developing emulators for each of the existing micro controllers. From your experience in real time control systems which do you think it is?

https://ecomento.de/2019/04/03/vw-el...t-effizienter/

Last edited by dennis; 12-27-2019 at 01:12 AM.
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-01-2020, 11:46 AM
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Well I don’t read German, and because they are replacing multiple distrusted control systems with a few central controllers (probably with more cores, DSP capability and many more interrelated GPIOs and high speed serial lines) doesn’t mean they are changing some of the underlying control loops. Rather that they are combining running many distributed ones which communicate probably with slower serial protocols with higher speed lines for command/control and running integrated code. If I have to guess instead of closer to “bare to the metal” modules they are now going to run tasks/threads in a mature real time OS.

Obviously there may be OS level, or performance tuning, but I would imagine a lot of the core code is simple port. The newer multi-code ARM/DSP all in ones can do so much and are much easier to upgrade and probably collect/collate data with.
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 01-01-2020, 05:14 PM
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My searching for info came across mention that the issues of this update are security related to SOTA. They'll have to manually update each car to fix it until pre-programmed control modules with fixed software get to the assembly lines.

They also intend to market and sell their software and control module architecture to other companies to make money on it.

They've got their own new OS for it called (how original?) vwOS.
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