TSLA in trouble - Page 53 - Jaguar I-Pace EV400 Forum
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post #521 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 11:24 AM
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Tesla outsold Porsche in the first half of 2019.
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post #522 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 12:18 PM
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Your 'chart' did not list the Tesla as affordable, hence they aren't talking about $40k cars. Will an I-Pace outrun a Model S at Streets of Willow? Certainly. A Model X? Yup.

But the article did compare the Tesla to Gasoline cars. Tesla does not make a car that outruns a Porsche. I'd be stunned if it could catch a ATS-V or CTS-V at a track like COTA, Laguna Seca, or Daytona. Which would be considered luxury sedans.
Let's assume everything you have said about i-Pace vs. Model S and Model X is true. Faster around race tracks. Better interior. Better fit and finish. Et cetera. How do you explain that so far this year in the US i-Pace is being outsold by Model X by 7:1 and by Model S by 5:1. With >150 days of i-Pace inventory sitting on dealer lots and advertised discounts up to $12,500.

I don't get it. There has to be some explanation. Is there something else that the Model S and Model X have that buyers want and the i-Pace can't compete with? What is it?
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post #523 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 12:27 PM
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Really? You brought up the point that the Model 3 Performance had gone off the track at 90 mph in an earlier test that Randy Pobst had done. That was a track comparison between Model 3P, i-Pace and the Alfa Giulia Quadrifoglio at Willow Springs. That was the Motor Trend article I quoted where the i-Pace also went off the track and was characterized by Randy as being "inconsistent" and "unpredictable". The title of the article is "War of the Worlds: Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor Performance vs Jaguar I-Pace EV400 HSE vs Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio".

The M3P and iPace are both street cars, not track cars. Tesla added a Track Mode to M3P after the Model S was dissed for not being able to go more that one or two laps on the track. It is a huge improvement in both motor cooling and handling vs. Model S. But it is still a relatively heavy street car, just like the i-Pace, which I experienced when I autocrossed the i-Pace at the Jaguar Electrifies event.

The idea that the M3P doesn't handle well, doesn't provide road feel feedback or isn't fun to drive is baloney. There are at least a dozen reviews by professional auto journalists where the handling of M3P is uniformly praised. Of course I know that because I own one. But even if I didn't I'd take their word on it over the opinions of anonymous internet posters on a Jaguar iPace forum.
Note: Even though the Tesla M3P is probably not included in your Luxury Matrix since it did not make the Top 3 in Price, the Model 3 P used for MotorTrend* both the Pre-Randy and Post-Randy times were not stock Model 3's. Tires and pads were admitted to. Customizing the tuning for a specific driver was also admitted to. None of that was done to the other cars in the test. But still a $45k Camaro SS outran it on the same track even though on paper it's far slower.

Remember this was all caused by the I-Pace out running the Laguna Seca time of the Model S, or you would have seen a BMW M3 instead of a Alfa Quadrifoglio there since Elon said the TM3 will outrun BMW M3's. But wisely, they used modified TM3's, and didn't bother using their more powerful Model S P100DL. Would the I-Pace run better if JLR could have provided a crew and tweaked cars? Most likely.

* Motor Trend have always been Tesla fans, even to the point of absurdity - "P85DL has 762HP" and runs 10's" according to MT, but neither were true of retail cars. Note they slammed the I-Pace on it's range but didn't even include the M3P range at all. Nor mention you don't have to pre-cool the I-Pace to get it to perform.

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post #524 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by dennis View Post
Let's assume everything you have said about i-Pace vs. Model S and Model X is true. Faster around race tracks. Better interior. Better fit and finish. Et cetera. How do you explain that so far this year in the US i-Pace is being outsold by Model X by 7:1 and by Model S by 5:1. With >150 days of i-Pace inventory sitting on dealer lots and advertised discounts up to $12,500.

I don't get it. There has to be some explanation. Is there something else that the Model S and Model X have that buyers want and the i-Pace can't compete with? What is it?
Marketing! Tesla is known as an EV maker while Jaguar has done a terrible job of marketing the I-Pace. People who approach me and ask about the car usually don't know that Jaguar makes an EV. Tesla has a huge head start on the EV market.
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post #525 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 02:24 PM
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Note: Even though the Tesla M3P is probably not included in your Luxury Matrix since it did not make the Top 3 in Price, the Model 3 P used for MotorTrend* both the Pre-Randy and Post-Randy times were not stock Model 3's. Tires and pads were admitted to. Customizing the tuning for a specific driver was also admitted to. None of that was done to the other cars in the test.
The Model 3 absolutely was included. Read the full article that the matrix came from. I posted it previously but I will link again below. Here are the highlights from the article:
Quote:
Article Highlights
  • Tesla was the luxury vehicle story again in Q2 for shopping, consumer perception and sales.
  • Tesla accounted for all of the gains in Q2 luxury registrations. Without Tesla, Q2 luxury sales would have fallen.
  • Tesla Model 3 was the most-considered model by luxury shoppers in Q2 for the first time. Tesla Model S makes the Top 15 most-shopped models. The brand ranked sixth most-shopped luxury brand.

Tesla dominates

The Tesla Model 3 jumped to the No. 1 most-considered luxury model in Q2, up from No. 6 in Q1, according to Kelley Blue Book Brand Watch. For the first time, Tesla had two of its three models in the Top 15 most-shopped list. The Tesla Model S sedan ranked No. 8 on the most-shopped list; it was not in the Top 15 in Q1.
https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-in...m_content=News

As you pointed out Tesla hired Randy Pobst as a tuning consultant for Track Mode. The "customized tuning for a specific driver" is what went into the next OTA update to track mode:

Quote:
Less than a week after that test session, Randy's tuning expertise will be available to all. Today—November 8—Tesla expects this "Release Version" software to be accessible to owners of all Model 3 Performance cars (with the redundant-sounding Performance option, now standard). The combined wizardry of engineers in Fremont, California, and our own Randy Pobst is being beamed via over-the-air updates. All you have to do is find a track and push a button.
Just to review the numbers one more time, including the Model S

1:20.67 Camaro SS 1LE, R compound tires
1:21.49 Model 3P with 245 width Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires and Brembo pads
1:22.78 Alfa Giulia Quadrifoglio (comparable tires to Pilot Sport Cups)
1:23.9 Model 3P stock (older track mode, Pilot Sport 4S tires)
1:27.0 i-Pace with 255/40R22 Pirelli P Zeros
1:28.0 2012 Model S P85 driven by Randy Pobst

https://fastestlaps.com/tests/guiel2aa4pfo
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post #526 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 04:12 PM
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Just to review the numbers one more time, including the Model S

1:20.67 Camaro SS 1LE, R compound tires
1:21.49 Model 3P with 245 width Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires and Brembo pads
1:22.78 Alfa Giulia Quadrifoglio (comparable tires to Pilot Sport Cups)
1:23.9 Model 3P stock (older track mode, Pilot Sport 4S tires)
1:27.0 i-Pace with 255/40R22 Pirelli P Zeros
1:28.0 2012 Model S P85 driven by Randy Pobst
Where the fcuk is the Prius in this?
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post #527 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 04:24 PM
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Where the fcuk is the Prius in this?
I was just thinking about the Prius and how being in the market first meant other manufacturer hybrids and PHEVs couldn't succeed. Cars like the Volt, Fusion and others didn't sell well despite being being superior. Now we're seeing the same trend with EVs. Tesla was first and has excellent marketing that has impacted the sales of better cars.
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post #528 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 05:46 PM
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Where the fcuk is the Prius in this?
Where the “fuck” is it?
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post #529 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-03-2019, 12:01 AM
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McDonald's outsells Chez Panisse. People lose their “shit” over a Popeyes chicken sandwich. Barely anyone goes to é by José Andrés.

Perceived value. Lack of taste. Lack of funds.

My $43k OTD truck is much nicer inside than any Tesla. It can also take home 960lbs of concrete. Slower around Laguna Seca, though.
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post #530 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-03-2019, 05:53 AM
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Part of the constant noise and fog is the conflation of “quality,” “luxury,” and sales numbers. It’s a branch hopping technique in argument. It’s popular because it’s good, or it’s good because it’s popular.

There is only one common thread imo: pr and talking points. I am afraid some of it comes from the top. If the company spent 1/2 the time it spends on claiming how revolutionary it is focusing on details the product may be better. But it has created such a fog of buzz words, over promises and hyperbole that maybe people who buy the car have to buy into it, otherwise they would realize they are complicit. It’s a variant of the Stockholm syndrome, as long as they perpetuate the idea they don’t have to see it for what it is?

Again I think a lot of the new M3 customers are just buying a car that finally is worth close to what you paid for it. So they don’t have the need for the same cognitive dissonance?
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