TSLA in trouble - Page 52 - Jaguar I-Pace EV400 Forum
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post #511 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-01-2019, 02:13 AM
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That is interesting feedback. And completely the opposite of what Road & Track had to say when they tested the M3P:
Dunno. Maybe they had a ringer or I had a dud. It felt numb and heavy in heavy mode. In medium steering it was numb and heavy but not as heavy. Then in light mode it was numb and super light. I moved quickly without joy. Maybe it has a different feel at 10/10ths, but I'm on a public road. At 7-8/10, it felt boring and fast. I've had more fun in a loaner Land Rover Discovery Sport, I kid you not.

But hey, it's more fun than a Prius or a Rav 4 hybrid. That's saying something.

As I pulled up to a light on the way to the dealership, I thought, "Gee, I'd really like a Fiat 500e again."

The M3P is a car that will get me home quickly, but it won't get me home smiling.

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post #512 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-01-2019, 10:58 AM
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That is interesting feedback. And completely the opposite of what Road & Track had to say when they tested the M3P:

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...ce-track-test/
As the article says, that was written before Tesla hired Randy Pobst to tune the car. At first the car made him uncomfortable since it behaved unpredictably.
He did amazing things with the tuning like stopping the car from leaving the track at 90mph unexpectedly. https://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesl...version-review
So once they finished the programming, they flashed it into a fresh M3P with wider tires and better brake pads and ran 1:21.74 which is impressive, almost as fast as the 2018 Camaro SS 2+2 pony car (1:20.69) which costs $45k before dealer incentives. Almost as fast as a front heavy RWD Camaro sporting a manual and NA pushrod 2V V8.

Nine months later, Tesla has not officially ran the Model 3 at Nurbringburg which is the international pecker measuring track, nor ran it back to back with the BMW M3. Somebody ran a 9+ with it.

But the real world is not a race track. Predictably governs exactly how fast you can go, since hitting trees and poles is lethal. One sweet thing about the I-Pace, is I find it predictable in bumpy braking section and bumpy corners. It can both understeer and oversteer on command with no PTMS active at all.

So the confidence level you have in your car's behavior when pushing it's limits is what matters for drivers who don't track their cars, which is nearly all of them. For street use, the more predictable a car is, the more fun it is. As I found out on a wet AX track, the fact the I-Pace was unflappable made it lap quicker than most the 'faster' cars, even an R8 and Stingray among other victims. I had no doubt what the I-Pace would do on a wet track with the PTMS disabled entirely, I only hit 1 cone (slalom) because I'm not used the rear tires being so far back, and the last cars I ran had shorter wheelbases or RWS. And I barely clipped them.
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post #513 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-01-2019, 01:03 PM
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As the article says, that was written before Tesla hired Randy Pobst to tune the car. At first the car made him uncomfortable since it behaved unpredictably.
He did amazing things with the tuning like stopping the car from leaving the track at 90mph unexpectedly.
You forgot to mention that Randy was taken on an off-road excursion when tracking the i-Pace at the same track comparison test. And that the i-Pace turned a 1:27:

Quote:
"Randy's just gone off Turn 2," the walkie-talkie barks. I look up from my laptop. What happened? Our Jaguar I-Pace is most definitely in the wrong place and has come to a stop amid drifting dust...A walkie-talkie hisses for a moment, and then … "The Jag suddenly put on its emergency brakes and sent me off the track."
And this:

Quote:
"There's a lot of understeer, and the brakes could be inconsistent," Randy notes. Those two words—inconsistent and unpredictable—keep coming up during his Jaguar download.
https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa...-performance-5

Last edited by dennis; 09-01-2019 at 01:09 PM.
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post #514 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-01-2019, 04:47 PM
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And what does the I Pace have to do with the M3P? It’s amazing how arguments are like kinder garden, “I am rubber and you are glue.”

Tesla stands or falls on its own, I Pace and Jaguar are irrelevant.
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post #515 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-01-2019, 09:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dennis View Post
You forgot to mention that Randy was taken on an off-road excursion when tracking the i-Pace at the same track comparison test. And that the i-Pace turned a 1:27:



And this:



https://www.motortrend.com/cars/alfa...-performance-5
The Jaguar was not used in the comparison in question. Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac, etc were.

But both the Jag and M3 understeer according to Randy. The M3 just flies off the track at a higher speed since it has much higher power-to-weight. And the Jaguar didn't bust anything. Tesla brought a pit crew and multiple cars, MT just grabbed one of the Press Car I-Paces that are prototypes and heavily abused.

The silly comment about the Dynamic Sound is silly. He probably thought there was too much wind noise with the windows down too. Turn it off, roll them up.

I learned how to drive the I-Pace in a corner in < 1 minute. The first corner had understeer, but I figured it out. I ASSuME Randy turned OFF the TC/SC on the I-Pace, but it doesn't say. SC endorses understeer, it's a safety thing. With the TC on, you can't get a good exit speed.
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post #516 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-01-2019, 09:44 PM
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Jaguar has never advertised the I-Pace as a track car. In fact they've said they built the car for driveability and comfort while deliberately ignoring 0-60 times. Tesla throws adjectives at their cars like performance, ludicrous and track mode so the assumption is the M3 will be a beast on a racing circuit. If you want to be a boy racer then buy the Tesla. If you want a great driving road car that will deliver you refreshed at your destination then purchase the I-Pace.
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post #517 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-01-2019, 11:56 PM
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The Jaguar was not used in the comparison in question. Porsche, Mercedes, BMW, Cadillac, etc were.
Really? You brought up the point that the Model 3 Performance had gone off the track at 90 mph in an earlier test that Randy Pobst had done. That was a track comparison between Model 3P, i-Pace and the Alfa Giulia Quadrifoglio at Willow Springs. That was the Motor Trend article I quoted where the i-Pace also went off the track and was characterized by Randy as being "inconsistent" and "unpredictable". The title of the article is "War of the Worlds: Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor Performance vs Jaguar I-Pace EV400 HSE vs Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio".

The M3P and iPace are both street cars, not track cars. Tesla added a Track Mode to M3P after the Model S was dissed for not being able to go more that one or two laps on the track. It is a huge improvement in both motor cooling and handling vs. Model S. But it is still a relatively heavy street car, just like the i-Pace, which I experienced when I autocrossed the i-Pace at the Jaguar Electrifies event.

The idea that the M3P doesn't handle well, doesn't provide road feel feedback or isn't fun to drive is baloney. There are at least a dozen reviews by professional auto journalists where the handling of M3P is uniformly praised. Of course I know that because I own one. But even if I didn't I'd take their word on it over the opinions of anonymous internet posters on a Jaguar iPace forum.
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post #518 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 12:02 AM
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Jaguar has never advertised the I-Pace as a track car. In fact they've said they built the car for driveability and comfort while deliberately ignoring 0-60 times. Tesla throws adjectives at their cars like performance, ludicrous and track mode so the assumption is the M3 will be a beast on a racing circuit. If you want to be a boy racer then buy the Tesla. If you want a great driving road car that will deliver you refreshed at your destination then purchase the I-Pace.
Right. That's why one of their first commercials shows the i-Pace running the F1 circuit at Monaco.

https://www.ispot.tv/ad/I0qw/2019-jaguar-i-pace-3-am-t2

And this:

https://www.jaguarusa.com/electrification/index.html
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post #519 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 12:43 AM
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[QUOTE=dennis;42825]Right. That's why one of their first commercials shows the i-Pace running the F1 circuit at Monaco.

That ad proves my point perfectly. It shows a middle aged man sitting comfortably in his I-Pace in the middle of the night and doing some spirited driving. There's no mention of performance figures nor does the ad show racing or any competition nor does it advertise that if you own an I-Pace you could possibly win a Formula 1 race. The ad is targeted towards those with the financial means to buy the car hence Monaco.

Jaguar doesn't name features and capabilities that appeal to teenagers. Nor does it call its driver's assistance/semi-autonomous features "Auto Pilot" which gives the wrong impression to less informed owners. I'm sure you saw the latest video of a Tesla driver asleep behind the wheel of his moving car. These sorts of incidents happen because Tesla markets its cars that mislead the buyer into thinking that the car can do things that it simply cannot.

Not all Tesla owners are boy racers but the guys who buy them with ludicrous mode, track mode, etc. are expecting their cars to have certain capabilities based upon the naming convention that Tesla uses to sell cars.
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post #520 of 550 (permalink) Old 09-02-2019, 11:12 AM
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Really? You brought up the point that the Model 3 Performance had gone off the track at 90 mph in an earlier test that Randy Pobst had done. That was a track comparison between Model 3P, i-Pace and the Alfa Giulia Quadrifoglio at Willow Springs. That was the Motor Trend article I quoted where the i-Pace also went off the track and was characterized by Randy as being "inconsistent" and "unpredictable". The title of the article is "War of the Worlds: Tesla Model 3 Dual Motor Performance vs Jaguar I-Pace EV400 HSE vs Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio".

The M3P and iPace are both street cars, not track cars. Tesla added a Track Mode to M3P after the Model S was dissed for not being able to go more that one or two laps on the track. It is a huge improvement in both motor cooling and handling vs. Model S. But it is still a relatively heavy street car, just like the i-Pace, which I experienced when I autocrossed the i-Pace at the Jaguar Electrifies event.

The idea that the M3P doesn't handle well, doesn't provide road feel feedback or isn't fun to drive is baloney. There are at least a dozen reviews by professional auto journalists where the handling of M3P is uniformly praised. Of course I know that because I own one. But even if I didn't I'd take their word on it over the opinions of anonymous internet posters on a Jaguar iPace forum.

Your 'chart' did not list the Tesla as affordable, hence they aren't talking about $40k cars. Will an I-Pace outrun a Model S at Streets of Willow? Certainly. A Model X? Yup.

But the article did compare the Tesla to Gasoline cars. Tesla does not make a car that outruns a Porsche. I'd be stunned if it could catch a ATS-V or CTS-V at a track like COTA, Laguna Seca, or Daytona. Which would be considered luxury sedans.
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