TSLA in trouble - Page 51 - Jaguar I-Pace EV400 Forum
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post #501 of 550 (permalink) Old 08-30-2019, 10:35 AM
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Here are some highlights from the Q2 Kelley Blue Book Brand Watch consumer survey for luxury vehicles.

https://www.coxautoinc.com/market-in...m_content=News



Here is a key graphic from that survey. It shows that Tesla ranks first in 7 of the 12 luxury factors of importance and second in two others. Note the other brands Tesla is being compared against. Apparently these consumers have different evaluation criteria than the commenters here.

And all that without even a HUD, state of the art suspension, all-wheel-steering, reclining rear seats, rear infotainment, interior storage areas, easy ingress-egress, massage, multi-mode programmable TC/SC or even a limited slip differential.

How they are rating Tesla #1 in Performance when Porsche is in the equation is certainly baffling. Tesla isn't up to Chevrolet performance standards.
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post #502 of 550 (permalink) Old 08-30-2019, 11:39 AM
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People seem to think acceleration and performance are the same thing (obviously, they're wrong).

Also, who ranks comfort or interior layout highly for Tesla? The crappy seats and lackluster styling is why I waited a few extra years for the I-Pace to come out instead of settling for a MX.

And, prestige? What a joke. We laugh at all the yahoos in identical M3s where I work.
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post #503 of 550 (permalink) Old 08-30-2019, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by dennis View Post
Here are some highlights from the Q2 Kelley Blue Book Brand Watch consumer survey for luxury vehicles.

Here is a key graphic from that survey. It shows that Tesla ranks first in 7 of the 12 luxury factors of importance and second in two others. Note the other brands Tesla is being compared against. Apparently these consumers have different evaluation criteria than the commenters here.
If there's one sure thing, it's that most people are idiots. But if KBB polls are as accurate as KBB pricing, this poll isn't worth anything. Also perceptions and reality are not the same thing. The number of stupid things I have to endure because of market preference is large and painful. Ever read "The Lottery"?

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And all that without even a HUD, state of the art suspension, all-wheel-steering, reclining rear seats, rear infotainment, interior storage areas, easy ingress-egress, massage, multi-mode programmable TC/SC or even a limited slip differential.

How they are rating Tesla #1 in Performance when Porsche is in the equation is certainly baffling. Tesla isn't up to Chevrolet performance standards.
I mostly agree. In all fairness, Tesla acceleration is tops, and as of the last few months, they now have, in the S and X, modern suspension. OTA? Maybe not, but close enough. Rear entertainment is a phone nowadays. Everybody is dropping that. Ingress and egress? Self-presenting doors on the X. They still have those? Never worked right when I tried them. The M3P has two levels of traction control though just a braking diff.

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People seem to think acceleration and performance are the same thing (obviously, they're wrong).
...
And, prestige? What a joke. We laugh at all the yahoos in identical M3s where I work.
I mostly agree. Acceleration is part of performance, a big part. As for laughing, well, the I-Pace is definitely more exclusive. I can't spit without hitting 5 Teslas in the Bay Area. I don't look down my nose at them, though. They're just cars.

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post #504 of 550 (permalink) Old 08-30-2019, 05:35 PM
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I thought this article captured the conflicting viewpoints we are debating here quite well.

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Tesla’s exterior and interior design elements are unlike other cars on the market. Save for the pre-facelift Model S and the original Roadster, all of Tesla’s vehicles have no grille, giving the current-gen Model S, Model X, and Model 3 a look that notably different compared to traditional automobiles. The interiors of Tesla’s electric cars are even more unique. Unapologetically minimalistic, Tesla’s interiors are centered on bleeding-edge tech and sustainability.

These unique elements make Teslas stand out from the crowd of competitors from traditional automakers like Lexus and BMW. At the same time, it also makes the designs of the company’s vehicles incredibly polarizing. Among the auto community, it is just as easy to find reviewers who rave about Tesla’s exterior and interior design as it is to find those that find them downright offensive.

Top Gear host Chris Harris, for example, loved the Model 3 Performance’s instant acceleration and track capability, but he was notably critical of the vehicle’s exterior styling, fondly remarking that the all-electric sedan was an “AK-47 disguised as a butter knife” in his review. It is also pretty common to see noted reviewers of premium electric cars such as the Jaguar I-PACE compare the British crossover’s plush interior favorably to the Model 3’s spaceship-like cabin.

Yet, if the results of the Q2 2019 Kelley Blue Book Brand Watch are an indication, it appears that a notable number of luxury car buyers are actually starting to prefer the clean lines and minimalist themes of Tesla’s electric cars over more conventional accents found in traditional luxury automobiles. KBB’s survey ranked automakers according to 12 categories that ranged from safety to prestige. Tesla dominated the list, ranking first in seven out of the list’s 12 categories.
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-exte...ry-buyers-kbb/
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post #505 of 550 (permalink) Old 08-31-2019, 06:52 AM
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Heh an article from the biggest Tesla propaganda site captures "both sides..." Teslarati is more distorting than RT...As for idea of "prestige" vs luxury.

My personal opinion is luxury is a combination of the tangible characteristics of a car (ride, acceleration, what is it it trying to achieve and does it achieve it), quality of material and manufacture (precision, actual materials, and texture/feel) and design/functional design (the interior/exterior styling, positioning, the "art" portion).

Prestige is a social status signifier, and yes it includes "see how much I paid." There are a lot of car brands that use prestige to sell (I won't name them because I don't want to start a war none of us will survive!). To me some are nothing more than just prestige. Then there are really good cars that have achieved "prestige" as they have become known, not necessarily for what they really did, but by popularity. So you get people who buy and drive them (or not, like the guy who bought my Alfa initially in Florida and traded it in for a Porsche in about 3 weeks, I am guessing he discovered it is "cool" but you can't just get in and tool around town, you actually have to DRIVE the thing).

I do not in any way see Tesla as luxury, as it doesn't hit any of the elements of that (as others have pointed out). The paint selection/quality is sub-par, the design is marginal (including mismash of font usage, and basically stealing the Tesla T from the Telluride logo), it can accelerate, but other factors do not match that (so it fails in being cohesive). The the texture/feel of interior material and features are, well, no need to repeat.

But it has a long range EV function and it definitely achieved a kind of "status" by marketing and hype. So it had a kind of prestige. And the M3's I believe is rapidly taking that away. In some ways that is good, the car is finally matching its true nature to how it is seen (an ok choice in long range EV vehicles). But there lies the problem: trading exclusivity (look I paid $120K for this I am rich) for market share would be great IF the larger selling units were making money. Other brands use high end vehicles as halo cars to sell to the middle (R8's make A3/A4/A5 seem that much cooler, the i8 definitely does the same foe 3/5 series). But they also make a very good profit in the cars that have the large share of the market. Tesla simply can't, because unlike other car makers it can't execute and has fundamental flaws in its economics.
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post #506 of 550 (permalink) Old 08-31-2019, 11:03 AM
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I mostly agree. In all fairness, Tesla acceleration is tops, and as of the last few months, they now have, in the S and X, modern suspension. OTA? Maybe not, but close enough. Rear entertainment is a phone nowadays. Everybody is dropping that. Ingress and egress? Self-presenting doors on the X. They still have those? Never worked right when I tried them. The M3P has two levels of traction control though just a braking diff.
I suppose my argument is that the automotive engineering community is in a renaissance. The cars of 2016+ are insane. Things like digital/hyd LSDs are not cutesy features. You can feel the difference when using tremendous power against today's stickier rear tires on exits. Drive a CTS-V set to Kill, and feel it. It puts it down like nobodies business. The digital LSD is probably why a mere 490HP of RWD will break the 3 second 0-60 mph barrier next month at $65k (2020 Corvette). And modern Performance Traction Management Systems are far different than the 3 mode systems of 17 years ago. 5 or more modes including an All Off are today's tech. 'Drift Mode' is actually built into most cars now. It's not even a setting, the rear will step out smoothly to about 15° slip angle when set to Normal (2009 tech). It will step out further as you set the system for more aggressive driving.

Whether Tesla can produce a suspension that can hang with similar priced remains to be seen. The newer cars are oh-so-wonderful in that regard. The I-Pace is pretty good even at >5000lb road weight. It is certainly miles ahead of the 2018 Tesla MS I experimented with, and that was the lighter version.

Rear entertainment is for people with small kids. It should be an option. I would mark Jaguar down a notch if I were to do a review, even though my kids are in college or older. Plus rear entertainment works with zero bandwidth such as we see out west.

Tesla makes a good car, with excellent acceleration. But is it as advanced as 2019 cars? If you consider a big motor the only feature, perhaps.
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post #507 of 550 (permalink) Old 08-31-2019, 12:49 PM
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I agree rear entertainment should be an option, but with our small ones on long trips we just download movies/shows to an iPad for the times there’s no connection. Admittedly, I would have bought the attachments to hold pads like that on the backs of the front seats, but I got the performance seats that aren’t compatible (and don’t regret it at all - the performance seats are amazing!)
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post #508 of 550 (permalink) Old 08-31-2019, 06:42 PM
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Whether Tesla can produce a suspension that can hang with similar priced remains to be seen. The newer cars are oh-so-wonderful in that regard. The I-Pace is pretty good even at >5000lb road weight. It is certainly miles ahead of the 2018 Tesla MS I experimented with, and that was the lighter version.

Tesla makes a good car, with excellent acceleration. But is it as advanced as 2019 cars? If you consider a big motor the only feature, perhaps.
If you get an opportunity, test drive a Model 3 Performance, head for your favorite stretch of twisties, and put it in Track Mode. You should also try the Model S Adaptive Suspension in Sport Mode. It has come standard since April 2019. I've heard it is good, but haven't had a chance to test drive it myself.
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post #509 of 550 (permalink) Old 08-31-2019, 08:15 PM
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If you get an opportunity, test drive a Model 3 Performance, head for your favorite stretch of twisties, and put it in Track Mode. You should also try the Model S Adaptive Suspension in Sport Mode. It has come standard since April 2019. I've heard it is good, but haven't had a chance to test drive it myself.
I did test the M3P with and without track mode. It was impressively fast and little fun to drive. The steering wheel effort is high in 2/3 modes and the sensations are low from both steering and suspension.

I did not test a Model S. The extra ~3 inches of width over an I-Pace really kills the fun in the twisties, so no reason to even try. If anything the I-Pace is wider than I prefer, and even the Model 3 is a bit porky. Fun is <70" wide. Real fun is <65" wide.

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post #510 of 550 (permalink) Old 08-31-2019, 11:38 PM
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I did test the M3P with and without track mode. It was impressively fast and little fun to drive. The steering wheel effort is high in 2/3 modes and the sensations are low from both steering and suspension.
That is interesting feedback. And completely the opposite of what Road & Track had to say when they tested the M3P:

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The standard, rear-drive Model 3 I tested earlier this year was a joy on winding country roads. The hefty battery pack is slung beneath the seats and between the axles, putting the car's center of gravity roughly level with the driver's elbows. That, plus a delightfully quick and talkative steering rack, makes Tesla's smallest sedan corner intuitively, with excellent suspension compliance and minimal body roll.
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As you can imagine, this is a ton of fun. The magic of the Model 3 platform is in the feedback. The quick steering murmurs surface changes into your fingertips. The chassis lets you know exactly where and when the weight is shifting. Tossability, low polar moment and charm are all baked into the design. The Performance upgrades just let it sing louder.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...ce-track-test/
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