TSLA in trouble - Page 41 - Jaguar I-Pace EV400 Forum
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post #401 of 642 (permalink) Old 08-09-2019, 01:28 PM
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Huh? I have no bone to pick, I love my local service center. I am reporting real actual experience I have with them. And as a Roadster owner so its not "made up". In my opinion it was their only interesting car, rest are overpriced American sedans. And for a while they were the only
long range EVs around, and I STILL didn't get one. What does that say to you?

I think you this that I have a "bone to pick" because you are looking at this from a binary and biased view: pro or con, love or hate. Agenda, anti Tesla. I am none of those things, and I am pretty sure I have owned many more BEVs from many more manufacturers than you have had. And by definition I am an earlier Tesla owner than you, so I am not sure where you get off lecturing me. I am able to view things in a complex manner, not black and white. Tesla service is SUBPAR but they try and I love my Roadster so I keep it. And every time I go back for them to try a fix they are not well trained for I am very nice to the great people who work at the service center. And I don't even laugh out loud when on the first attempt they gave me a loaner, and on the second on they said "company policy is we don't give loaners." I just stood there with a smile on my face and asked what changed, they said nothing. Mind you this is within one week.

Honestly I am very objective, but I am pretty sure you are not. And you are repeating false arguments AGAIN as we have now repeatedly talked about how numbers at this point aren't the primary concern.
Where to start? You don't like Tesla sedans. That doesn't tell me anything other than people have different preferences in cars.

If we're going to get into measuring, I've owned 6 EV's from 3 different manufacturers. Does that make me qualified to comment?

Are you measuring Tesla's SUBPAR service on an absolute scale? Or on a relative scale to other manufacturers whose cars you have owned like Jaguar? I'm glad you like the Tesla service personnel. They try hard to satisfy the customer even though they make mistakes.

If talking about numbers isn't a primary concern and a false argument that what are the key points we should be talking about here? Musk's personality seems to be a favorite. Seriously, what are the objective measures you are using to evaluate how well the various car companies are doing with the move to electrification? How are you sorting out the future winners from the losers? Who is leading the market and why? Who has the best long term strategy? Or do you not care about that? How are we to know if "Tesla is in trouble" (thread title) if we aren't answering those questions?

Last edited by dennis; 08-09-2019 at 01:32 PM.
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post #402 of 642 (permalink) Old 08-09-2019, 02:15 PM
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Where to start? You don't like Tesla sedans. That doesn't tell me anything other than people have different preferences in cars.
Not really, some things are preference, others are measurable. Everything is not opinion, only certain things are. For example quality of interior is not opinion. Ride and handling can be measured, it is different than "like." When a "sporty" sedan that has ludicerous mode lifts its front tires by inches when power is applied this is both bad design and DANGEROUS. This is NOT opinion. Front tires kind of important for controlling a car. If you are a kid you go "wheeeee" and maybe laugh at fart mode. As an experienced driver I immediately take my foot off the pedal, turn the car off and hand the keys back. Which is exactly what I did.

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If we're going to get into measuring, I've owned 6 EV's from 3 different manufacturers. Does that make me qualified to comment?
Sure I never said you are not qualified, you kept making negative comments about my statements, and I was letting you know its based on experience, observation, analysis, not "cult."

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Are you measuring Tesla's SUBPAR service on an absolute scale? Or on a relative scale to other manufacturers whose cars you have owned like Jaguar? I'm glad you like the Tesla service personnel. They try hard to satisfy the customer even though they make mistakes.
Both. In absolute terms their service centers are not up to the volume, repairs take way too long, from what I see they have tried to remove too much of actual diagnostics to a point where both the customer pays too much and the company wastes too much in not repairs done on site.

In relative terms the service experience for Model S/X is abysmal compared to luxury car makers. If I take my BMW in the level of service, speed of service, loaners, everything is first rate. I have to BEG for them not to park my Roadster outside in an unprotected lot in the middle of hail season. On a car that can not be repaired. That is before the quality of service. As I said before it was funny last time I pulled in and an excited M3 owner was checking it out and said "wow its the royalty of Teslas you must be treated like that here." I smiled and waited until he left before I talked to the service rep. I didn't want to ruin his excitement as a new Tesla owner.

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If talking about numbers isn't a primary concern and a false argument that what are the key points we should be talking about here? Musk's personality seems to be a favorite. Seriously, what are the objective measures you are using to evaluate how well the various car companies are doing with the move to electrification? How are you sorting out the future winners from the losers? Who is leading the market and why? Who has the best long term strategy? Or do you not care about that? How are we to know if "Tesla is in trouble" (thread title) if we aren't answering those questions?
Dennis the numbers for Tesla are analytically bad. This is not opinion. This is not FUD. This is not anti-Tesla. There are analysts and experts who look at this and they are NOT missing anything. It is the armchair "experts" who talk about tech revolution, visionary, changing the car industry. That is noise.

You said before you won't post until Tesla shows a profit. I am not saying you should do that. I am just saying this profit is not on the horizon for reasons that have been repeated her ad nauseam. Just one point in context of this response: for Tesla to bring its service centers just "up to par" requirements vast investment. They cut back massively last quarter just to reduce the scale of loss. This can not be sustained. There are other structural factors too, and they have all been listed before.

I am sorry this doesn't align with your wishes. It doesn't align with mine either, I want Tesla to not go away. But you know the saying, if wishes were horses...
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post #403 of 642 (permalink) Old 08-09-2019, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by epirali View Post
Dennis the numbers for Tesla are analytically bad. This is not opinion. This is not FUD. This is not anti-Tesla. There are analysts and experts who look at this and they are NOT missing anything. It is the armchair "experts" who talk about tech revolution, visionary, changing the car industry. That is noise.

You said before you won't post until Tesla shows a profit. I am not saying you should do that. I am just saying this profit is not on the horizon for reasons that have been repeated her ad nauseam. Just one point in context of this response: for Tesla to bring its service centers just "up to par" requirements vast investment. They cut back massively last quarter just to reduce the scale of loss. This can not be sustained. There are other structural factors too, and they have all been listed before.

I am sorry this doesn't align with your wishes. It doesn't align with mine either, I want Tesla to not go away. But you know the saying, if wishes were horses...
Tesla is not going away. They were cash flow positive for 3 of the past 4 quarters. They have $5B in cash on hand.

Despite the under investment in service Tesla customers remain staunchly loyal to the brand. 89% would buy again, according to Consumer Reports. With over 500,000 cars sold they can't all be fanboys. Jaguar has sub par service too but only 64% of their owners say they would buy again. Is Jaguar going away?

You have harped on Tesla's lack of profitability. I've repeatedly responded that Tesla does not need to be profitable now. They need to be cash flow positive, continue to add service centers (25 last quarter), supercharger locations (88 last quarter) and manufacturing capacity (Shanghai factory and Fremont retooling for Model Y).

Obviously we disagree on the metrics by which to measure Tesla. I'm satisfied with their performance against the metrics I think are important so I remain a long term investor in the stock. Others disagree. That's what makes a market.
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post #404 of 642 (permalink) Old 08-09-2019, 03:51 PM
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I do have a love/hate relationship with this thread but I really didn't know where else to post this bit of entertainment:
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-supe...arking-garage/
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post #405 of 642 (permalink) Old 08-09-2019, 05:00 PM
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Obviously we disagree on the metrics by which to measure Tesla. I'm satisfied with their performance against the metrics I think are important so I remain a long term investor in the stock. Others disagree. That's what makes a market.
And here is the crux, no matter how many times you repeat your position. I am not talking about what I "believe." I am talking about realities of a company that stays in business. No company stays in business because of long term investors, long term investors stay in because they believe the company will be profitable OR the stock will climb because the future of company looks bright.

Right now by hard metrics and numbers neither is true. This is not my opinion. But as they say: past performance is not an indication of future returns.
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post #406 of 642 (permalink) Old 08-09-2019, 05:50 PM Thread Starter
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No Dave, you have to work on reading comprehension. The SUPERCHARGER in Aurora was replaced by a SUPERCHARGER in North Aurora that is several miles closer to the Interstate. It is more convenient for people travelling long distances in their Teslas, which was the original purpose of Supercharger network. The 4 port portable Supercharger in Aurora was installed in 2014. The 8 port permanent Supercharger replaced it in 2016. I guess 6 miles is "far" in your neck of the woods.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Wood...41.7608911!3e0

Tesla installed 4 DESTINATION CHARGERS Two Brothers Roundhouse in Aurora after they removed the portable Supercharger. Those are more appropriate for a brew pub destination.
How little you understand about the places I know well. The Woodman's array location is a joke, unless you're shopping at Woodman's (a grocery store). It's hardly a rest stop type area. A little Google street view will illuminate. There isn't even a sidewalk to walk on to get to the McDonald's, sort of nearby. No doubt Tesla felt that McDonald's is the fast food of choice for interstate travelers, if they don't mind being a pedestrian on the roadway.

Downtown Aurora on the other hand is a decent spot for the Tesla owners in the area. But like most of us they charge at home.

No, the 2 supercharger stations were replaced by something an I-Pace or Bolt owner might use, in a place where they might use it. The 8 stations in North Aurora will go mostly unused except for the truly desperate.
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post #407 of 642 (permalink) Old 08-09-2019, 06:08 PM Thread Starter
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Oh, and yes, 6 miles is too far to walk to get the the steak house, or anything else downtown Aurora. Apparently it's also too far to drive for Teslas on the interstate.
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post #408 of 642 (permalink) Old 08-10-2019, 03:01 AM
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And here is the crux, no matter how many times you repeat your position. I am not talking about what I "believe." I am talking about realities of a company that stays in business. No company stays in business because of long term investors, long term investors stay in because they believe the company will be profitable OR the stock will climb because the future of company looks bright.

Right now by hard metrics and numbers neither is true. This is not my opinion. But as they say: past performance is not an indication of future returns.
The "hard metrics" that you are applying may be appropriate for a mature, slow growth auto company. They do not apply to a company that is investing to grow revenues 5x-10x faster than the companies they are disrupting. If Tesla's financials were as dire as you paint them they would have been unable to raise $2.7B as easily as they did last quarter. So it is your opinion, not fact, and there are others with capital to invest who have the opposite opinion.
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post #409 of 642 (permalink) Old 08-10-2019, 03:17 AM
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Ride and handling can be measured, it is different than "like." When a "sporty" sedan that has ludicerous mode lifts its front tires by inches when power is applied this is both bad design and DANGEROUS. This is NOT opinion. Front tires kind of important for controlling a car. If you are a kid you go "wheeeee" and maybe laugh at fart mode. As an experienced driver I immediately take my foot off the pedal, turn the car off and hand the keys back. Which is exactly what I did.
Experienced driver? Didn't you notice there was zero tire squeal when you accelerated? Surely as the fast spinning front tires were lifted off the road there would have been lots of noise as they broke traction. And there is no way a 5000 lb. sedan can accelerate from 0-60 in 2.4 seconds without the contact patches for all 4 tires gripping the road.

What you experienced was the body lifting as weight was transferred to the rear due to the massive acceleration from fully stopped. But all 4 tires stayed in contact with the road as the control software apportioned the torque instantaneously between the front and rear axles to ensure that maximum grip was maintained. Without as much as a chirp from the tires. I've done it multiple times with my Model S P85D in Insane Mode and a test drive Model X P100D in Ludicrous Mode.

Yes it can be a bit disconcerting the first time you feel the body raise up on the front suspension. But there is no danger other than getting to 60 mph really quickly. No swerving, no fishtailing, no broadsliding. Just crazy straight line acceleration. Like the California Screaming roller coaster at Disney's California Adventure.
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post #410 of 642 (permalink) Old 08-10-2019, 06:41 AM
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@dennis : I am sorry it just seems like you dont actually read the posts. Tesla is no longer a growth company, the curve is flattening and it is just a car company, not a growth tech company. So the metrics applied by experts are CORRECTLY applied. These are just more talking points. And again I AM NOT APPLYING the metrics, it is not my opinion.

Contact patch, transfer of power etc, none of this has anything to do with what I said. The front of a sport car DOES NOT rise with fast acceleration, that just means that someone put way too much power in a suspension/body what is not designed to handle it. And you just sound like a sale/PR guy. Tires lifting off the ground is NOT normal. No chirp from tire is traction control (which every fast car including my Alfa has) and NONE of my very fast cars life the front when accelerating, because IT IS UNSAFE to not have full weight contact on your wheels that are guiding your car. And no there would be no squeal from front tires that are not spinning/driving power (this was in the RWD model). That one was doing 3.x seconds.

You either miss the point or purposefully try to shift/create noise. Model S is not a sports car, the speed is for kids, car is not a total design, just a speed rocket on an inappropriate suspension. Try a McClaren, Ferrari, i8, Alfa, even a Roadster and youll see the difference between a real car and a Model S.

How many more times can we go around this circle of PR bs and talking points? I do admire your dedication to distortion.
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