New JuiceBox 32 & Pre-Conditioning your EV - Mike Mas - Page 2 - Jaguar I-Pace EV400 Forum
 14Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 05:04 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Central Florida
Posts: 422
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVforMe View Post
FWIW the Jag Engineer in the video I linked above specifically said when you use DC Fast charging balancing doesn't happen. He went on to recommend the occasional overnight AC charge if you do a lot of DC charging.
Yes, exactly the DCFC don't use the onboard charger and BMS, so it is recommended to only use DCFC to about 80% - enough to get you to another charger. Use an L2 to get to 100%. Mostly the because of the balancing problem and the heat. This is not Jaguar specific as you can read in the thinks provided for Battery University.

2019 I-Pace EV400 SE
Firenze Red - Ebony/Ebony
Driver Assist Pack
Black Exterior Pack
20" 5 Spoke Style 5068 Gloss Black Wheels
plus a few extras
Sbingham60 is online now  
post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 06:09 PM
Senior Member
 
Qtown charger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sbingham60 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciencegeek View Post
A Li battery's life is actually reduced when it gets charged to full all the time. JLR, like other manufacturers, prevent full charges for that reason and quit charging when they're at about 97% of capacity. This is to mitigate the detrimental effects. They will insist that charging to that level (their "100%") does not damage the battery.

However, nuance is important here. It does not damage the battery to always charge to full, but there is ample scientific literature showing that battery life is extended when it is neither fully drained nor fully charged all the time.
I was thinking about this very thing today after reading some other posts about charging to 80% and was considering starting a new thread.
There are plenty of reputable places where folks can see that the MFG has already handled the head and tail buffers of the battery. The biggest threats being Heat, Heat, Heat and age. Frequent use of DC Fast Chargers can degrade batteries over time, Storing (weeks) at 100% state of charge can degrade, but again the MFG has added a buffer. The car was designed to handle all the stress for you and it manages Heat very well.

For anyone who wants a few things to read I'll post three links below. The conclusion should be that charging to 80% or 100% is just a personal choice with little benefit or damage from your choice.
CleanTechnica has an easy read with a less technical look at why it's okay to charge an EV to 100% if that is your wish: https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/26...an-ev-battery/
Battery University has section 1003, 1003a, and 1004 explaining lots about benefits, charging, and storage of an EV battery system. 1003 explains again what the MFG has built in for buffers and why your battery is protected - https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/...ric_vehicle_ev
GeoTab has a really good study of over 6000 EVs, with a database that looks at battery life and degradation. Unfortunately the Jaguar is too new to be in the database, but there are lots of others models to look at the life of the battery overall - https://www.geotab.com/blog/ev-battery-health/

The point is that if your car is a daily driver, you shouldn't worry about charging to 100% unless you want to worry. Charging to 80% max + the factory buffer gets you a modest benefit over 8 years, but only a modest benefit. It's really a personal choice. Your warranty is already baked into the chemistry, the thermal controls, and the charge/discharge rate needs of the car. Enjoy.
Thank you for this post. I believe this forum has discussed this point multiple times over the past months. Hopefully this is the definitive statement on the subject, and we can move on to other matters that are not being manipulated by commercial claims to enhance new unnecessary products.
Qtown charger is online now  
post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 06:54 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
LowOnCash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 63
As I mentioned, charging to only 80% is not mandatory, however its proven fact avoiding full charges will definitely increase the health and life of the battery. You'll charge faster with less heat. Keep in mind, this is not something new, back the 90's it was concluded that short charging l;ithium batteries prevents deterioration of the chemistry resulting increased life-span.



For possible 85% of car owners, its a no brainer, If you're like most folks you only travel 30-75 miles a day and when you get home you put it on charge. If you were charging to only 80% you won't have to do nothing different than your doing before.



There's a reason that it takes so long to charge to 100%, it has to be done carefully to prevent damages to the cells as well as the time needed to balance the pack. Less charge means less heat in the summer months. Heat kills lithium!



Bottom line - the reason to charge to 80% is the same exact reason the manufacture won't let you charge the pack to 100% (90kw /85% usable) It shortens the life of the cells!



Regards - Mike
LowOnCash is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 06:56 PM
Senior Member
 
epirali's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
Posts: 962
Ok, Bolt has a 87% charge option, Leaf had the 80% charge option, Tesla lets you set the charge amount, the Taycan lets you program the exact percentage you want charged (with a very nice minimum level so it will charge to minimum on plug in, which is the other end of the spectrum preventing the battery sitting at too low a charge).

So why can’t the I-Pace just give us a max charge level? Yes yes I know, I know...
sciencegeek and I-Pace like this.
epirali is online now  
post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 07:22 PM
Senior Member
 
Qtown charger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by epirali View Post
So why can’t the I-Pace just give us a max charge level? Yes yes I know, I know...
It does. It is already built into the battery management software.

I'd be willing to bet if JLR gave an 80% option, someone on here would want 75%. The graphs in the links about show it is incremental. There is no level of charging that doesn't degrade the battery over time. I'm just suggesting that chargers that offer this feature are doing so more as a gimmick that as a providing an answer to a real need.
Qtown charger is online now  
post #16 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 07:48 PM
Senior Member
 
epirali's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Mid Atlantic USA
Posts: 962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qtown charger View Post
It does. It is already built into the battery management software.

I'd be willing to bet if JLR gave an 80% option, someone on here would want 75%. The graphs in the links about show it is incremental. There is no level of charging that doesn't degrade the battery over time. I'm just suggesting that chargers that offer this feature are doing so more as a gimmick that as a providing an answer to a real need.
I disagree. I am not very worried about it, but even something as wanting full regen at start means allowing the customer to set a non 100% charge. I have owned enough EVs that I know it is very useful indeed, and if someone doesn’t use it then fine. Only reason some companies don’t is because I believe it may “ding” the EPA ratings. But it is very useful indeed.
epirali is online now  
post #17 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 08:41 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Middle OH, USA, Earth
Posts: 329
Quote:
Originally Posted by epirali View Post

So why can’t the I-Pace just give us a max charge level? Yes yes I know, I know...
WattCat (available to Android phone users) can do that.

Sales literature for Jaguar showed it in the Jaguar app but it isn't in the delivered product (at least not in North America). Since WattCat uses the Jaguar API, clearly this feature could be in Jaguar's app.
Ayepace is offline  
post #18 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 09:14 PM Thread Starter
Member
 
LowOnCash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 63
Quote:
Originally Posted by epirali View Post
Ok, Bolt has a 87% charge option, Leaf had the 80% charge option, Tesla lets you set the charge amount, the Taycan lets you program the exact percentage you want charged (with a very nice minimum level so it will charge to minimum on plug in, which is the other end of the spectrum preventing the battery sitting at too low a charge).

So why can’t the I-Pace just give us a max charge level? Yes yes I know, I know...

Looks like this 80% charge thing is quickly becoming the norm especially on public chargers where it takes almost as long to charge from 80-to full charge as it does to charge to 80%. It really depends on what your travel plans are, if you're going out for the day or planning a trip of course you take her to the max, but if your like most 80% works. Don't know too many owners with EV's who travel 200 miles a day!


Mike
epirali likes this.
LowOnCash is offline  
post #19 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 11:32 PM
Super Moderator
 
sciencegeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Palo Alto
Posts: 1,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qtown charger View Post
It does. It is already built into the battery management software.
That's not the case. When your L2 or trickle charger quits, a fully functional battery will have accepted about 84 kWh of the total capacity of 90.2 kWh. So JLR opted for a ceiling of about 93% of theoretical capacity. Not 80% and not 75% and certainly not settable.
sciencegeek is online now  
post #20 of 24 (permalink) Old 02-11-2020, 11:34 PM
Super Moderator
 
sciencegeek's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Palo Alto
Posts: 1,428
Quote:
Originally Posted by Qtown charger View Post
I'd be willing to bet if JLR gave an 80% option, someone on here would want 75%.
So what. Why can't I set a charging percentage? It would be so easy to implement. I totally don't understand why the manufacturers don't make this feature a free parameter. Maybe they think "yeah whatever, people are dumb and they'll misunderstand, and there will be user error, better to leave it to the charger companies so it's not our problem."
sciencegeek is online now  
Reply




Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome